Sharon and Abbas and Arafat

[hgc]

Sharon and Abbas getting along famously. CNN - Erakat: Israel, Palestinians to announce cease fire. Does that prove that it was Arafat's fault all along? Discuss...

 

[aerocontrols]

Evidence, perhaps. Proof of such a matter is a lot tougher to show. My belief is that Arafat was a real hindrance to progress, and the region is better off without him. I understand that many look at the same evidence I do and come to a different conclusion.

It's wonderful to see progress being made in that conflict, as well as protests against Mubarak's non-democratic rule in Egypt, and the first baby steps towards democracy in Fraudi Arabia - hopefully the people there will like Thursday's election, they'll love it, they'll want more of it. Yes, and also elections in Iraq.

Hopefully the Lebanese will start prying the Syrian government out of their country, too.

 

[hgc]

...

Hopefully the Lebanese will start prying the Syrian government out of their country, too.

Ah yes. It's been a while since the last Lebanese civil war. Be careful what you ask for.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Look at it this way. Lets say Osama Bin Laden/Al Queda had been attacking America for 30 years at home and internationally. Then in a bizzare twist of fate the world gives Osama Bin Laden/Al Queda the keys to 1/3rd of mainland USA for their own state, nearly dividing America in two. Do you think Clinton and Osama would have gotten along? How about Bush and Osama? How about Reagan and Osama?

Do people think Osama really yearned for peace with America after trying to destroy it for the past 30 years? Disregarding the arms smuggling, stealing international of aid, dictatorship, suicide bombing or the backing of Saddam Hussein parts that is...

Look how much has been acomplished since Arafat's death...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to add 2+2.

 

[hgc]

Look at it this way. Lets say Osama Bin Laden/Al Queda had been attacking America for 30 years at home and internationally. Then in a bizzare twist of fate the world gives Osama Bin Laden/Al Queda the keys to 1/3rd of mainland USA for their own state, nearly dividing America in two. Do you think Clinton and Osama would have gotten along? How about Bush and Osama? How about Reagan and Osama?

Do people think Osama really yearned for peace with America after trying to destroy it for the past 30 years? Disregarding the arms smuggling, stealing international of aid, dictatorship, suicide bombing or the backing of Saddam Hussein parts that is...

Look how much has been acomplished since Arafat's death...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to add 2+2.

Not that I disagree about Arafat, but your analogy is seriously flawed. The area given to Arafat to control was not part of Israel.

 

[Number Six]

While I try to be optimistic about the Isreali-Palestinian thing I don't see how a truce between Israel and Abbas helps unless the factions that Abbas doesn't control (Hamas, etc) go along too. It seems like no matter what happens or how well things go any extremist group can derail things at any time if they so choose.

 

[aerocontrols]

While I try to be optimistic about the Isreali-Palestinian thing I don't see how a truce between Israel and Abbas helps unless the factions that Abbas doesn't control (Hamas, etc) go along too. It seems like no matter what happens or how well things go any extremist group can derail things at any time if they so choose.

Off-topic, but did you know that a robot from another star system has the same name as you?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Not that I disagree about Arafat, but your analogy is seriously flawed. The area given to Arafat to control was not part of Israel.

Ok. Bad example. Change it to "the world gave Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda control of southern Canada and northern Mexico"...from where decades of attacks were launched against Americans.

Originally postedby Number Six
While I try to be optimistic about the Isreali-Palestinian thing I don't see how a truce between Israel and Abbas helps unless the factions that Abbas doesn't control (Hamas, etc) go along too.

That is a big problem that has caused Israel no end of grief over the years. Now it is time to find out who dictates Palestinian foreign policy... Abbas?... or Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, PLFP, Hizbollah, Syria, Iran....

 

[Number Six]

Off-topic, but did you know that a robot from another star system has the same name as you?

I've heard the new Battlestar Gallactica is good but I haven't seen it. but no, I didn't know there was a character there with my name. And from time to time when I've been on Paltalk I've had British people tell me that Number Six was the name of a character in an old British TV series. So I guess I'm not very original.

 

[hgc]

I've heard the new Battlestar Gallactica is good but I haven't seen it. but no, I didn't know there was a character there with my name. And from time to time when I've been on Paltalk I've had British people tell me that Number Six was the name of a character in an old British TV series. So I guess I'm not very original.

Number Six is The Prisoner. Who is Number One? Hmmm? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[CBL4]

Arafat had shown that he not accept a peace deal or propose a reasonable peace deal. Dealing with him was pointless.

Unfortunately, his legacy of terrorism has made it extremely difficult for any Palestinian leader to unite the Palestinians for peace. I wish the Palestinians luck but I do not think it is possible for Abbas (or anyone else) to lead them to peace in the near future.

CBL

 

[zenith-nadir]

Today is a great day. A cease fire has been announced.

But as usual the real villians in this saga are going to ruin it for everyone;

Hamas rejects Abbas' cease-fire

GAZA, Feb. 8 (UPI) -- Hamas leaders Tuesday rejected Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' cease-fire declaration at the peace summit in Sharm el-Sheikh in Egypt.

Musheer al-Masri, a spokesman for Hamas in Gaza, told reporters Abbas' declaration represents only the Palestinian Authority's position "and doesn't necessarily represent the position of other factions, including Hamas."

 

[Jocko]

Number Six is The Prisoner. Who is Number One? Hmmm? Enquiring minds want to know.

Turned out Number One WAS Number Six all along. At least that's how it all ended.

Not much of that series made a whole lot of sense.

 

[BPSCG]

I wish the Palestinians luck but I do not think it is possible for Abbas (or anyone else) to lead them to peace in the near future.

I'm somewhat more hopeful.When I see Abbas and Sharon getting together on their own, without a U.S. president grabbing them by the scruffs of their necks and locking them in a room (a la Carter with Begin and Sadat, Clinton with Arafat and Peres), I have to consider that to be a good sign.

It all comes down to whether Abbas can shut down Hamas. He has to; he can't have some unelected, independent militia running around screwing things up. If they won't put down their weapons, he'll have to crush them.

 

[Cleopatra]

Late Arafat harmed his people more than anybody else. He lowered their standards of a decent life so much that he made them believe that itis better to explode themselves among civilians than dreaming a better life.He decided to keep them like animals in refugee camps and use the financial aid that he got even from Israel to buy dresses for the blonde wife and bombs for the religious lunatics.

He pushed things to the extremes because he was an egocentric creature and he didn't wish to have a Palestinian State through negotiations but only though violence in order to prove what a magnificent and brilliant soldier he was.

May he rest in peace and his sins are forgiven.

Abu Mazen although belongs to the same generation with Arafat, he was one of the founding members of POL was never a follower of the extremes. I am certain that USA and Israel believe that it's easier to push Abas but I believe that it's not and that he is a hard nut as well. He is an offsping of an era that produced strong and determined people.

His major problem will be to inspire the Palestinians and make them believe that their way to a better life has nothing to do with terrorism and that they will have to forgive if they want to proceed. They have to forgive us. They have to.We all have to forgive.

Also,his other major problem will be not so much to control Hamas but to control them in the future Palestinian government.

Ariel Sharon. Oh well Ariel. A guy that creates mixed feelings. Stubborn but devoted to death to the land he was born to the point that some times he becomes dangerous for this very land.

If Ariel Sharon was a lawyer like Abas he would know that the power of guns is not infinite and it's only the power of negiotiations that is infinite. I blame him for attempting to trap Israeli people and Jews world wide in fear and in this pursuit he had the unconditional support of Hamas.

I cannot blame Arafat for everything. Let's say that he belonged to a different era , where there wasn't any room for negotiations. So, in our days he was an obstacle in the peace process not because ( as I mentioned previously) he was against peace per se but he wanted peace only to prove what a genious general he was.

 

[Cleopatra]

I edited my post above to add an "us" in the phrase where I am saying that the Palestinians have to forgive us. My ego prevented me from adding this us at first place but this is what I am saying to my Palestenian friends all the time. They have to forgive us for our mistakes( I am talking about mistakes and NOT about the establishment of Israel) and we have to proceed to built our different and separate states and lives.

 

[Lucky]

I don’t believe that Arafat was the obstacle to the peace process, but it’s good that this idea is coming to be accepted by both Israelis and Palestinians, because that gives them a strong reason to hope and work for peace now.

From Cleopatra:
Abu Mazen although belongs to the same generation with Arafat, he was one of the founding members of POL was never a follower of the extremes. I am certain that USA and Israel believe that it's easier to push Abas but I believe that it's not and that he is a hard nut as well. He is an offsping of an era that produced strong and determined people.

He’s also an order of magnitude more intelligent than Arafat, which seems relevant.

They have to forgive us. They have to. We all have to forgive.

That’s not so difficult if there’s a good enough reason. Just for the moment, Israelis and Palestinians think they may have a good enough reason.


From the BBC’s Have Your Say.
First, some representative views from Israelis and Palestinians:

I am an Israeli and you would call me a hardliner because I believe in the inalienable right of the Jews to whole of the biblical holy land. However for the sake of my children and grandchildren if the Palestinians demonstrate that their ultimate aim is for an independent democratic Arab state living side by side with a secure Jewish State of Israel then even I, albeit with a heavy heart, am prepared to trade land for peace. However the Palestinians have to demonstrate that this is their aim and gain the trust of me and people like me who have witnessed nearly sixty years of bloodshed. This must include the dismantling of groups Hamas which both preach and act towards the destruction of Israel.
Norman, Jerusalem Israel

Peace is within reach - provided that the leadership on both sides will be rational and brave. The only reasonable solution is the two state solution, with Palestine in the 1967 borders being the national home of the Palestinian people, and Israel - the national home of the Jewish people.
Dov, Israel

I think that we as Palestinians can do much more to end the violence against Israel, true peace is reachable once the violence on both sides will come to an end. Mr. Abbas should go ahead and dismantle Hammas and Jihad, and then the true Palestinian voice will be heard.
Mohammed, Palestine

This ceasefire can work and become eternal, rather than temporary, only and only if the Israeli government takes the decision of not targeting Palestinian militants. Once we see that the cessation of violence actually benefits us as a people, we will support Abu Mazen one hundred percent. I think that both sides (but especially the Palestinians) have suffered enough and it is time to live side by side in accord and harmony.
Tamer, Palestinian Christian

As usual, the professional pessimists and troublemakers are mostly from outside Israel/Palestine:

The only way you can have peace is if Israel goes back to the 1967 borders (which is still unfair but acceptable) and the Jewish settlers be removed from the Palestinian lands. This of course will not happen as Israel needs to be in control of Jerusalem and needs to rebuild the temple of Solomon for their messiah to return and establish the kingdom of Israel. This will involve tearing down the al-Aqsa mosque, a job which has already started. Anyone who sees this as a conspiracy theory needs to review Israeli statements from the past 50 years.
Mohsin Khan, London, UK

Looks like the Bush Agenda is moving forward as planned...
Thomas Brennan, Millbury, Massachusetts

No, there is no hope. As long as we (the West) continue to support Israel's occupation of Palestine no results will be achieved, no matter what the optimism is. The responsibility lies with the Israelis in returning all the territory taken since 1967. As long as they flaunt the UN resolutions, the status quo will remain.
Pat Sumners, England

This is not the time for smart-arse, destructive pessimism.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have posted this quote in another thread, but it applies here too.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Middl...force-out-Arabs/2005/02/08/1107625207841.html

In the battleground of East Jerusalem, the Israeli Government is accused of backing moves for a Jewish cordon around the city.

The Israeli Government and private Jewish groups are working to build a human cordon around Jerusalem's Old City and its disputed holy sites, moving Jewish residents into Arab neighbourhoods to consolidate their grip on strategic locations.

According to a Washington Post investigation, the goal is to establish Jewish enclaves in and around Arab-dominated East Jerusalem and form a ring around the city.

The city has been a key battleground in the decades-long Israeli-Palestinian conflict because of its Jewish and Muslim holy sites.

The Israeli Government has sometimes violated its own laws and regulations to advance the encircling effort, the Post investigation found.

Critics of the plan say the Government is subsidising and protecting Jewish groups that are deliberately scuttling peace efforts by establishing enclaves in overwhelmingly Palestinian neighbourhoods.
AdvertisementAdvertisement

As part of the effort, the Israeli Government began expanding the West Bank's largest settlement, Maleh Adumim, without building permits and in violation of the settlement's development plan. The work stopped in September after Washington Post inquiries.

Israeli security forces also seized a Palestinian-owned hotel on the border of eastern Jerusalem after expelling its owners and declaring them absentee. Nearby, a private Jewish organisation has bought and occupied two illegal houses that the Israeli Government is paying private security guards to protect.

"There's a dovetailing of Government actions and settlement activity," said Daniel Seidemann, an Israeli lawyer who has fought numerous court battles against Jewish takeovers of Arab-owned houses and land.

He said the Government had adapted its pro-settlement policies "to service messianic groups" that were moving into Arab neighbourhoods.

A State Attorney's Office report, which has not yet been released, concluded that almost every major ministry in the Israeli Government assisted in the construction, expansion and maintenance of illegal settlement outposts, according to the Israeli daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

The report found that "every echelon, from minister to low-level clerks, ignored settlers' violations of the law . . . bypassing the zoning laws and master plans", and improperly funnelling state money to settlement expansions, even after Israel's Attorney-General ordered them not to, the newspaper says.

What does Israel want, land or peace? Can Abbas have any credibility? If he setttles for peace, the Palestinian land dissappears, acre by acre. Israel wants to have it's cake, and eat it too.

 

[CapelDodger]

It seems like no matter what happens or how well things go any extremist group can derail things at any time if they so choose.

Only if the Israelis choose to let it. To insist that any attack will stop negotiations is a gift to rejectionists.

The settlements will be crucial. There will effectively be three negotiations going on - within Israel, Israeli-Palestinian and within the Palestinians. Tricky.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I agree! How dare those pole-smoking settler nazis want to live amongst Palestinians. Get rid of 'em all ! Only until they are all cleansed from the lands can realâ„¢ peace be acheived! Heil Hitl....er...ahhh...nevermind...