Sharia law in Germany

[RelentlessPunishment]

Here's a good mainstream news article on sharia in Germany. It's things like this that make me think there's something very smart about pro-active anti-sharia legislation:

http://www.spiegel.de/international...te-two-legal-systems-in-germany-a-839580.html

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Yes, the situation described there is very bad, but what good do you think anti-sharia laws would do? The ones I am familiar with are either vague or only concern State acceptance. This is just out of court arbitration and societal pressures. Arbitration only gets power because the parties agree to it. Should we limit who arbitrators can be? I'd say we could go with precedent and limit the cases that arbitration can deal with, family law or crimes, for example. Of course, then the problem is if going to "get advice" from ones priest, imam, grandma is arbitration. I'd be willing to bet they would just do it informally enough to avoid such restrictions.

 

[jasonpatterson]

Virtually every society has people outside of the court system who arbitrate things of this nature. How many people go to a preacher, or a marriage counselor, or Uncle Fred, or whoever they have who is in a position of authority to help fix family problems? I don't think it's sharia that is keeping abusive relationships together.

 

[Cleon]

Oddly, this is only a problem with Muslims. Orthodox Jews and other religious minorities that do the same damn thing, for some reason, don't seem to be on the radar.

 

[A'isha]

Here's a good mainstream news article on sharia in Germany. It's things like this that make me think there's something very smart about pro-active anti-sharia legislation:

http://www.spiegel.de/international...te-two-legal-systems-in-germany-a-839580.html

Since the whole problem with these arbitrators is that they operate without the knowledge or involvement of any actual judicial or legislative authority, how is "pro-active anti-sharia legislation" supposed to help curb the activities or influence of these ad-hoc, below the radar shariah courts?

For example, if the exact same thing that's happening in Germany as described in the Der Spiegel article is happening in Kansas, recent Kansas "anti-shariah" bill signed into law by Governor Brownback wouldn't be able to affect things one little bit.

 

[A'isha]

Oddly, this is only a problem with Muslims. Orthodox Jews and other religious minorities that do the same damn thing, for some reason, don't seem to be on the radar.

Like this, for instance.

 

[crimresearch]

So shariah is Arabic for 'domineering families'...

Clearly the answer should be anti-family legislation, hey OP?

 

[Robrob]

Here's a good mainstream news article on sharia in Germany. It's things like this that make me think there's something very smart about pro-active anti-sharia legislation:

http://www.spiegel.de/international...te-two-legal-systems-in-germany-a-839580.html

Non-judicial arbitration used by nearly every country and by many social groups. The OP is either uninformed or purposely deceitful.

 

[A'isha]

Non-judicial arbitration used by nearly every country and by many social groups. The OP is either uninformed or purposely deceitful.

The problem described in the article is, indeed, a problem. It, however, is not a problem exclusive to Muslims, and it's definitely not a problem that can be solved (or even begin to be addressed) by "pro-active anti-sharia legislation".

 

[lionking]

Virtually every society has people outside of the court system who arbitrate things of this nature. How many people go to a preacher, or a marriage counselor, or Uncle Fred, or whoever they have who is in a position of authority to help fix family problems? I don't think it's sharia that is keeping abusive relationships together.

This is my view as well. I didn't see any application of sharia "law" in that article.

 

[TsarBomba]

Oddly, this is only a problem with Muslims. Orthodox Jews and other religious minorities that do the same damn thing, for some reason, don't seem to be on the radar.

Cleon, In the words of Wolfgang Pauli, you are not even wrong. The concept of a "get" under Jewish law, as governed by Jewish religious tribunals, gets a lot of press, a simple Google news search and about three seconds of thougt found this article. The other issue is that Jewish religious tribunals are not as tolerant of things like wife beating, child marriage, forced marriage, and polygamy as the dufus furniture salesman in the article.

 

[A'isha]

Cleon, In the words of Wolfgang Pauli, you are not even wrong. The concept of a "get" under Jewish law, as governed by Jewish religious tribunals, gets a lot of press, a simple Google news search and about three seconds of thougt found this article.

I provided a link to an article written by the woman profiled there above. But Cleon's point still stands...how many "anti-halakha laws" have been proposed, much less passed?

The other issue is that Jewish religious tribunals are not as tolerant of things like wife beating, child marriage, forced marriage, and polygamy as the dufus furniture salesman in the article.

On the other hand, there's also things like this (with more here).

The problem isn't Muslims or shariah. The problem is insular, highly conservative religious communities who handle issues like this solely within the community, and don't even talk to, much less involve, the actual governmental authorities of the countries those communities live in (and, in Germany's case, this is exacerbated by the various additional problems with assimilating and integrating primarily-Muslim immigrant communities due to the lack of the same sort of birthright citizenship that we have in America).

 

[McHrozni]

Here's a good mainstream news article on sharia in Germany. It's things like this that make me think there's something very smart about pro-active anti-sharia legislation:

http://www.spiegel.de/international...te-two-legal-systems-in-germany-a-839580.html

You can't legislate who people turn to to settle disputes. You can educate them about alternatives however, and stringently persecute those that violate existing laws. I'm quite sure wife-beating is illegal in Germany, and if the husband spends a night in jail because of it, he may be less inclined to repeat it. If she is threatened by relatives for telling, you can move her and her children to a safe place and persecute the relatives, again using existing laws. If they are repeat offenders and non-citizens, you can deport them.

That won't solve the problem, but it won't get you any meaningful accusations of bias either, certainly nothing you need to be defensive about. It will also generate less opposition, as there would be little tangible about being against Muslims, it would be just keeping with the established laws and norms.

McHrozni

 

[Aepervius]

Here's a good mainstream news article on sharia in Germany. It's things like this that make me think there's something very smart about pro-active anti-sharia legislation:

http://www.spiegel.de/international...te-two-legal-systems-in-germany-a-839580.html

It is not really sharia *law* in as so much as it is people applying some set rules in live without the law supporting them. In fact, if many of the situation described where put ebfore a judge, with the justification "it is sharia's law" it would be dismissed to suick and the situation made conform to german law.

Also : isn't spiegel yellow journalism anyway ?

 

[DC]

i have no problem with Muslims following sharia rules, or other religious groups folowing their rules, aslong they do not try to force me to follow the nonsense.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Also : isn't spiegel yellow journalism anyway ?

The print magazine was once highly reputable, has deteriorated somewhat during the last 15 years but is still far from yellow journalism. The online version, done by a different team, is mainly daily news, some gossip and propaganda. The English language section is relatively new and seeks audience by delivering to cliches about Germany. Mixing GWOT propaganda with this aim sometimes leads to alarmist, misleading articles like this.

 

[Babbylonian]

i have no problem with Muslims following sharia rules, or other religious groups folowing their rules, aslong they do not try to force me to follow the nonsense.

That sounds good until you consider that some could be using those rules to manipulate and abuse others, especially women. This makes me ambivalent about it (though not paranoid, like so many of "OMG Sharia comin' to get us" crowd).

For example, in the US we have the Amish community which has its own rules based on religion and maintains a certain separation from the rest of the country. But, they give their children a chance to experience and hopefully learn something about what they would be missing if they decide to commit to that separation and the Amish life as adults.

If, as the article implies (there seemed to be a lot of barely attributed anecdotes in it), young girls are being forced/manipulated into marriage and wives are being pressured to stay with abusers, that would be a good reason to give these practices a serious look and try to figure out a way to address them as a serious problem.

But why is this article being framed as if it has to do with Sharia law? The article itself makes clear that in large part the problem is that mediators aren't really following any law besides perhaps "Muslim men are to be in control of the lives of their wives and daughters."

 

[Dcdrac]

i have no problem with Muslims following sharia rules, or other religious groups folowing their rules, aslong they do not try to force me to follow the nonsense.

I second and third that

 

[DC]

That sounds good until you consider that some could be using those rules to manipulate and abuse others, especially women. This makes me ambivalent about it (though not paranoid, like so many of "OMG Sharia comin' to get us" crowd).

For example, in the US we have the Amish community which has its own rules based on religion and maintains a certain separation from the rest of the country. But, they give their children a chance to experience and hopefully learn something about what they would be missing if they decide to commit to that separation and the Amish life as adults.

If, as the article implies (there seemed to be a lot of barely attributed anecdotes in it), young girls are being forced/manipulated into marriage and wives are being pressured to stay with abusers, that would be a good reason to give these practices a serious look and try to figure out a way to address them as a serious problem.

But why is this article being framed as if it has to do with Sharia law? The article itself makes clear that in large part the problem is that mediators aren't really following any law besides perhaps "Muslim men are to be in control of the lives of their wives and daughters."

whenever an involved person does not agree with it they can go to a real court, or to the polive etc. those rules are not binding law. in front of a real court, those rules don't count at all.

Sure there is a problem in such communities that its not easy to break free etc, the pressure is very big. but i think the only thing we can do against it is protecting those that break free and help them to build up a life outside those communities.

 

[Babbylonian]

whenever an involved person does not agree with it they can go to a real court, or to the polive etc. those rules are not binding law. in front of a real court, those rules don't count at all.

Sure there is a problem in such communities that its not easy to break free etc, the pressure is very big. but i think the only thing we can do against it is protecting those that break free and help them to build up a life outside those communities.

That can't be the only solution - or at least no caring society should accept it as such - if the process is being used to abuse citizens or even alien residents.