Shades of soft atheism

El Greco

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Nov 11, 2003
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I've noticed in a previous poll that soft atheists are the majority here. So I wonder whether there are actually any grades in their "softness". The way I understand it, soft atheists say that the existence of a God is highly improbable but since they can't prove his absence they don't categorically deny his existence. The question is, do all soft atheists consider his existence *highly* improbable or are there some among them who give a higher percentage ? And if, for example, you think that the chances God exists are about 50%, doesn't this affect your everyday life "just in case" ?
 
First of all, I think that something which is often missed needs to be pointed out, and that is that the designation of "soft" or "hard" atheist only actually means anything within the context of some specific definition of god, or within some specific class of definitions of god.

For example, with respect to all of the gods worshipped by any of the religions throughout history that I know of, I am a hard atheist. That is, I believe that these gods are man-made fictional characters, and simply do not exist. With respect to some of the more philosophically oriented definitions, such as the definition of god as the first cause or some such, I am a soft atheist. With respect to incoherent definitions of god, or conceptions of god I have never even heard of, the question is moot. There is no meaningful claim there for me to have or lack belief in.

I think this is a point many people miss. When somebody says that they are a hard atheist, they usually are not claiming that every conception of god anybody ever has, or ever will come up with, does not exist. That would not even be coherent. What they are usually saying is that they believe that the various conceptions of god which they have heard of, and which they consider to actually be worthy of being called gods, do not exist. There is an important difference.

That said, I would say that there is a continuum between soft and hard atheism. When I say I believe something, that just means I think that it is very probably true. How likely I think it is to be true, is another question. There is no magical threshold. If I am confident enough that something is true, I will say I believe it. If I am not, then I wont. There is a huge gray area in between.

Dr. Stupid
 
- Hmm. I've personally always had a gripe against the various distinctions between soft and hard atheism, etc.

- I'm an atheist, which is to say I'm a skeptic: invisible, immeasurable things are equal to nonexistent things. (That's a hard rule for me.) Thus far, ALL gods and goddesses have fallen into that category. I am a "hard" atheist in this respect... they do not exist until someone can show that they do.

- Note of course that atheism doesn't mean "no gods or goddess could possibly exist", except for the ones who contradict their own definitions. Christianity has a problem in that respect. So does Islam.

- Probability, in this context, is kind of pointless as far as I can see. How probable is it that we're a feather on a magic, invisible turkey? I dunno.
 
Not much more to say. If I said that I did not believe that there could possibly be a god, for all possible definitions of god, that would be illogical. Short of that, I'm an atheist.

I have had people insist that by admitting even that logical trapdoor, I'm really an agnostic. Whatever. I'm so much of an atheist I don't even care if you think I am one. :D

~~ Paul
 
Folks tend to go on and on over these terms. Agnostic, Atheist, Skeptic, Rationalist...Whatever.

One fellow on another board maintained you couldn't call yourself an Atheist unless you actively tried to disprove the existence of God. Proving negatives is always rather difficult, though.

I think of myself as a Rationalist, in that I refuse to invest belief where there is insufficient evidence.
 
I see what you all mean. My idea of a hard atheist is a less philosophical, more practical one. Of course I can't disprove God, nor do I know all possible definitions that people give to God. Someone could say that the God was Elvis, who am I to say that Elvis didn't exist :D

But for all practical purposes I am a hard atheist, meaning that I act as if I could prove that God doesn't exist. Hence my question: Are there "soft atheists" among us who consider God's existence somewhat probable (albeit not certain or they would be deists) ?
 
Who the hell "KNOWS" there is no God with all the faith and conviction of religion? It seems that the point of atheism is to think instead of do that. Is it just me, or is hard atheism a strawman?
 
El Greco said:
And if, for example, you think that the chances God exists are about 50%, doesn't this affect your everyday life "just in case" ?

Not really. I can't prove there isn't a God anymore than I can prove that there is. Truth is, I don't really care. If God does exist and if he is anything like the Judaeo-Christian religion paints him to be, I wouldn't like him much, anyway.

Day to day, I try to live with respect, understanding and compassion for others because it simply makes more sense to live that way. I'm happy in the skin I'm in and certainly not out of fear of retribution or in search of some paradise.
 
< tangent >

c4ts said:
Is it just me, or is hard atheism a strawman?
That's a thought that has been running through my mind lately. I used to spend a lot of time debating the existence of god at a Christian forum, and ran into many people repeatedly using the idea of hard atheism as a strawman, much as some atheists may use Christian fundamentalism as a strawman argument.

I'm sure there are a few hard atheists out there... but I don't think I have ever met any of them.

< /tangent >


Soft atheist here. I don't have any idea how to come up with a percentage of probability for deities though.
Out of honesty, I have to admit I don't know if there are any gods, but I can't say that I seriously entertain the notion of gods existing, either.
 
Nex said:
That's a thought that has been running through my mind lately. I used to spend a lot of time debating the existence of god at a Christian forum, and ran into many people repeatedly using the idea of hard atheism as a strawman, much as some atheists may use Christian fundamentalism as a strawman argument.

I wish very much that some of the ideas of Christian fundamentalism were straw man arguments... the number of people that seem to agree with absurd extensions of fundamentalist logic, with a straight face, scares me sometimes.

But it is nice to remember that most Christians are far more rational about it.
 
c4ts said:
Who the hell "KNOWS" there is no God with all the faith and conviction of religion?

Uhmmm.... me ? :D

Let me clarify: For me, "I know" means not only that "I can prove it", but also that "I act as if I could prove it". The rest is pure semiotics as far as I'm concerned. In my life it doesn't make any difference whether I can disprove God or not. It also doesn't make any difference whether there's a chance that someone has left right now 1 million out of my front door. There is a chance for that too, but I'm not going to open the damn door :D I feel that I can use the expression "I know that God doesn't exist" as freely as I can say "the light is on". And I guess that in a deep philosophical discussion someone could also challenge my knowledge that "the light is on". But I don't care. There are some things which we take for granted in order to move on. This doesn't mean that I am not willing to admit my knowledge is wrong, as long as someone proves it to me; and *that* is the difference with religious beliefs.

To put my original question somewhat differently: I'm trying to find out whether there are soft atheists whose behavior would change if someone would soundly disprove God to them.

In the absence of contradictious replies I conclude that for all practical purposes soft and hard atheists behave and think in exactly the same way.
 
I think I said this on another thread, but I'm agnostic towards the concept of a supreme being that created the universe. It's possible, but I'm not sure if it's probable.

I'm pretty much atheist towards the big religions like Christianity and Muslim and whatnot. There isn't enough time for me to type out all the zeroes in the very small percentage number I'd grant that they might be right.
 
El Greco said:
And if, for example, you think that the chances God exists are about 50%, doesn't this affect your everyday life "just in case" ?

Out of the thousands of gods worshipped by humanity throughout recorded history, which god and which religion do you suggest we consider, "just in case"?
 
Stimpson J. Cat said:
For example, with respect to all of the gods worshipped by any of the religions throughout history that I know of, I am a hard atheist. That is, I believe that these gods are man-made fictional characters, and simply do not exist. With respect to some of the more philosophically oriented definitions, such as the definition of god as the first cause or some such, I am a soft atheist. With respect to incoherent definitions of god, or conceptions of god I have never even heard of, the question is moot. There is no meaningful claim there for me to have or lack belief in.

I agree but I call myself a soft theist.
 
Cleopatra,

I agree but I call myself a soft theist.

OK, I give up. What does that mean?

I can take a guess. The term "theist" means "somebody who believes in god", and "atheist" just means "not a theist". The modifier "soft" in "soft atheist" just means that it is the weakest possible version of atheism. In other words, just lack of belief, rather than a stronger position such as belief of non-existence of gods.

So as a guess, I would think that "soft theism" just means the weakest possible version of theism. In other words, belief that some sort of god exists, without any additional beliefs concerning the nature of that god.

Am I close?


Dr. Stupid
 
I tried to play with the definitions of soft atheism I saw in this thread and show that a soft version of theism exists as well-- if we are allowed to use this term.

For example I know pretty well that the God I believe in it's a fictional character, made by other human beings but I find useful the philosophical and moral implications of this belief and I observe that it meets some of my psychological needs as well.

This is the reason why I don't lament for the God who let 170.000 people die from that Tsunami for example, or the God who lets people get killed in Wars.

Maybe I am wrong but I think El Greco wonders about the levels of tolerance towards the Christian beliefs.
 
Cleopatra said:
For example I know pretty well that the God I believe in it's a fictional character, made by other human beings but I find useful the philosophical and moral implications of this belief and I observe that it meets some of my psychological needs as well.
I'm curious that you term yourself a theist when you consider that your god doesn't exist; do you believe other gods exist; why call yourself a theist if you don't believe there may be a God.

I would call myself a soft theist; I believe there is a God and try to do what he may want a bit but I may be wrong and I know that I can't prove God's existence to somebody else.
 
El Greco said:
And if, for example, you think that the chances God exists are about 50%, doesn't this affect your everyday life "just in case" ?
If you're referring to Pascal's Wager then my opinion is that it is a load of crap. Any Christian God worth his salt won't condemn the majority of his creation and also will know what someone believes so you can't 'fool him'.

How the hell can you follow a God you don't believe in (if belief had anything to do with salvation).
 
Re: Re: Shades of soft atheism

Mr Clingford said:
If you're referring to Pascal's Wager then my opinion is that it is a load of crap. Any Christian God worth his salt won't condemn the majority of his creation and also will know what someone believes so you can't 'fool him'.

How the hell can you follow a God you don't believe in (if belief had anything to do with salvation).


balrog666 said:
Out of the thousands of gods worshipped by humanity throughout recorded history, which god and which religion do you suggest we consider, "just in case"?

*HUGE sigh*. Replies like the above are the reason I don't post much in this subforum. I ask an honest question and look at what I get. Who said anything about Pascal's Wager or "fooling the God" and what's the relevance of what God we consider...

Never mind, Happy New Year everybody!
 
Re: Re: Re: Shades of soft atheism

El Greco said:
*HUGE sigh*. Replies like the above are the reason I don't post much in this subforum. I ask an honest question and look at what I get. Who said anything about Pascal's Wager or "fooling the God" and what's the relevance of what God we consider...

Never mind, Happy New Year everybody!
Take heart, apologies if my post has disheartened you. i was just expressing, too forcefully, it appears, that I find the concept of 'just in case' nonsensical. It also reminded me of Pascal's Wager which I really do think is complete rubbish.

Do you do anything that is 'just in case' (trying to get some friendly dialogue going).
 

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