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Sentencing options - you decide.

anglolawyer

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anglolawyer
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Here are three recent cases from the UK. I want you to pass sentence. No googling to look up what each defendant actually got.

Case A

Two businessmen perpetrated a series of mortgage frauds worth £750M (yes, million).

Case B

A guy twice drove his Range Rover up mount Snowdon (Wales's highest peak) and parked it there. He failed to turn up at court and posted a message on the courthouse saying 'you can't catch me'.

Note: Snowdon is three thousand feet high. A railway line runs all the way to the top where there is a snack bar.

Case C

A guy sued his local authority (local government) after injuring himself when crossing their land. He was supported by two witnesses. They all signed 'statements of truth' to support the claim but the claim was dismissed when CCTV evidence showed they had made it up. The local authority then successfully brought proceedings for contempt of court and they were duly sentenced.

I will reveal the answers after a few guesses as I think they are interesting. For the Americans, we are a lot softer than you so I will probably have to halve your guesses to bring them into line but it's the ratio between them that interests me mainly. Er, no one got the death penalty btw.:)
 
With no reference to what the law allows my sentences would be

A - massive seizure of the businessmen's assets, a £100k fine, costs. I would also look to have them on some sort of life licence whereby there are conditions, primarily to do with no mortgage or other similar applications are allowed, which if they breach they are straight back to court.

B - the bill for the vehicle removal and any damage caused, a fine of £500 and costs for being a cheeky arse.

C - fines of £500 each and costs to pay for the court case and council to compensate for the work they did in defending the original action and taking out the new one.

I would not send any to prison as none are violent. I am assuming all have no previous convictions of any note.
 
Nessie said:
With no reference to what the law allows my sentences would be

A - massive seizure of the businessmen's assets, a £100k fine, costs. I would also look to have them on some sort of life licence whereby there are conditions, primarily to do with no mortgage or other similar applications are allowed, which if they breach they are straight back to court.

B - the bill for the vehicle removal and any damage caused, a fine of £500 and costs for being a cheeky arse.

C - fines of £500 each and costs to pay for the court case and council to compensate for the work they did in defending the original action and taking out the new one.

I would not send any to prison as none are violent. I am assuming all have no previous convictions of any note.
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I don't know of any previous convictions ('priors' for the yanks). Let's assume they were all of good character. I noted nothing to the contrary in the reports I read.

ETA the law allows sentences of imprisonment in all three cases, as well as fines, sequestration, community sentences and all other things falling short of imprisonment.
 
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offhand thoughts

I would give Case A some prison time, even though it was not a violent offense. I probably would scale the penalty in some way, based on the amount of money. Off the top of my head, I would say one year. Case C, I might give a brief prison sentence (1 week), along with Nessie's penalties. Case B sounds like it should be dealt with by a modest fine plus costs.
 
A: 10 years plus fines, etc.

B: 30 days

C: They should be facing several years for fraud. Why no fraud charges?
 
With apologies to Nessie for stealing and modifying but I mostly agree-:

A - massive seizure of the businessmen's assets, a £500k fine, costs. I would also look to have them on some sort of life licence whereby there are conditions, primarily to do with no mortgage or other similar applications are allowed, which if they breach they are straight back to court. 3 year sentence to minimum security prison.

B - the bill for the vehicle removal and any damage caused, a fine of £500 and costs, a few days community service.

C - fines of £1500 each and costs to pay for the court case and council to compensate for the work they did in defending the original action and taking out the new one. Significant community service/short prison term.

I think fraud or attempting to defraud the public purse should be taken seriously in A & C, in B I think the contempt of court is more significant than the actual offence.

I also expect my sentances to be way off.
 
Modified said:
A: 10 years plus fines, etc.

B: 30 days

C: They should be facing several years for fraud. Why no fraud charges?
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I suppose they could have been prosecuted for fraud but the local authority took civil proceedings for contempt. I doubt they could be prosecuted in a criminal court now as that would entail double-jeopardy (could be wrong about that TBH).

Some very interesting guesses so far. I am giving nothing away for now.
 
anglolawyer said:
I suppose they could have been prosecuted for fraud but the local authority took civil proceedings for contempt. I doubt they could be prosecuted in a criminal court now as that would entail double-jeopardy (could be wrong about that TBH).

Some very interesting guesses so far. I am giving nothing away for now.
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Not a lawyer, but I would have thought that the contempt of court (surprised it wasn't perjury) would be a separate crime committed in the attempted execution of the fraud. If not it should be.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
Not a lawyer, but I would have thought that the contempt of court (surprised it wasn't perjury) would be a separate crime committed in the attempted execution of the fraud. If not it should be.
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Contempt of court isn't a crime and you only commit perjury if you lie on oath (e.g. in the witness box) apart from some special types of perjury. These guys never got into the witness box because the case was shown to be bogus before it came on for trial.

The contempt jurisdiction arises from the court's powers to protect its own proceedings from abuse. If you show up in court shouting and swearing at the judge and making a scene then the judge can lawfully throw you in the slammer there and then without going through the rigmarole of a prosecution and trial. In this case, the contempt involved signing documents (the claim form and supporting witness statements) without an honest belief in the truth of the statements. It's akin to perjury but not quite the same thing. Many, but not all, acts of contempt would also be crimes.
 
anglolawyer said:
Here are three recent cases from the UK. I want you to pass sentence. No googling to look up what each defendant actually got.

Case A

Two businessmen perpetrated a series of mortgage frauds worth £750M (yes, million).

Case B

A guy twice drove his Range Rover up mount Snowdon (Wales's highest peak) and parked it there. He failed to turn up at court and posted a message on the courthouse saying 'you can't catch me'.

Note: Snowdon is three thousand feet high. A railway line runs all the way to the top where there is a snack bar.

Case C

A guy sued his local authority (local government) after injuring himself when crossing their land. He was supported by two witnesses. They all signed 'statements of truth' to support the claim but the claim was dismissed when CCTV evidence showed they had made it up. The local authority then successfully brought proceedings for contempt of court and they were duly sentenced.
....
Click to expand...

I'd like to know more about the individual cases.

A/ Was the mortgage fraud against individual homeowners, or against other banks (thieves stealing from thieves)? Was it willful fraud, like Bernie Madoff, or was it just a wrong bet about future prices, interest rates etc.? Was it one act, or a series of acts over an extended time?

B/ Why did the guy drive up the mountain, and what was the actual crime? Driving off-road, parking in a no-parking zone, what? If it's just a traffic offense, not showing up in court is usually treated as a guilty plea in the U.S., but usually there's no additional penalty for not going to court. And taunting the cops pretty much ensures they'll come looking for you, but it doesn't increase the penalty.

C/ This sounds like deliberate fraud. If they filed sworn statements, it sounds like they could be up for perjury and fraud, not just contempt of court.

So, how 'bout some details?
 
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Bob001 said:
I'd like to know more about the individual cases.

A/ Was the mortgage fraud against individual homeowners, or against other banks (thieves stealing from thieves)? Was it willful fraud, like Bernie Madoff, or was it just a wrong bet about future prices, interest rates etc.? Was it one act, or a series of acts over an extended time?
Click to expand...

They tricked some banks into thinking one of them was a super rich property baron. They also had previous convictions for forgery (selling bogus titles to Americans).

B/ Why did the guy drive up the mountain, and what was the actual crime? Driving off-road, parking in a no-parking zone, what? If it's just a traffic offense, not showing up in court is usually treated as a guilty plea in the U.S., but usually there's no additional penalty for not going to court. And taunting the cops pretty much ensures they'll come looking for you, but it doesn't increase the penalty.
Click to expand...

First occasion, he said it was on his list of "things to do before you die". Second time, he says someone else took his car and drove it up . The offence he was charged with was dangerous driving. Apparently he must have driven on the train tracks at some point on the ascent.
 
Bob001 said:
I'd like to know more about the individual cases.

A/ Was the mortgage fraud against individual homeowners, or against other banks (thieves stealing from thieves)? Was it willful fraud, like Bernie Madoff, or was it just a wrong bet about future prices, interest rates etc.? Was it one act, or a series of acts over an extended time?

B/ Why did the guy drive up the mountain, and what was the actual crime? Driving off-road, parking in a no-parking zone, what? If it's just a traffic offense, not showing up in court is usually treated as a guilty plea in the U.S., but usually there's no additional penalty for not going to court. And taunting the cops pretty much ensures they'll come looking for you, but it doesn't increase the penalty.

C/ This sounds like deliberate fraud. If they filed sworn statements, it sounds like they could be up for perjury and fraud, not just contempt of court.

So, how 'bout some details?
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Fair questions:

A Flamboyant fraudster AK, 44, conned lenders into advancing enormous loans to buy 16 landmark properties across the UK.

B Dangerous driving - he said it was on his list of things to do.

C can't be perjury as they did not make it to the witness box to swear or affirm. Fraud, I agree it was, but the court's contempt powers were invoked instead and in sentencing for contempt the court could take full account of the circumstances. Don't want to give too much away but contempt on these facts is worse than fraud since it compounds an attempt to extract money by dishonest means with abuse of the legal system.
 
Professor Yaffle said:
They tricked some banks into thinking one of them was a super rich property baron. They also had previous convictions for forgery (selling bogus titles to Americans).



First occasion, he said it was on his list of "things to do before you die". Second time, he says someone else took his car and drove it up . The offence he was charged with was dangerous driving. Apparently he must have driven on the train tracks at some point on the ascent.
Click to expand...

Thanks Prof. These are better answers than I gave.
 
anglolawyer said:
Contempt of court isn't a crime and you only commit perjury if you lie on oath (e.g. in the witness box) apart from some special types of perjury. ......
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In the U.S., perjury isn't necessarily just lies told in court:

Two federal statutes govern the crime of perjury in federal proceedings. ..... and includes proceedings that are ancillary to any court, such as affidavits and depositions, and Grand Jury proceedings.....Two variations of perjury are Subornation of Perjury and false swearing; in many states these two variations are separate offenses. Subornation of perjury is a crime in which the defendant does not actually testify falsely but instead induces, persuades, instigates, or in some way procures another witness to commit perjury. False swearing is a false statement made under oath but not made during an official proceeding. ....

perjury n. the crime of intentionally lying after being duly sworn (to tell the truth) by a notary public, court clerk or other official. This false statement may be made in testimony in court, administrative hearings, depositions, answers to interrogatories, as well as by signing or acknowledging a written legal document (such as affidavit, declaration under penalty of perjury, deed, license application, tax return) known to contain false information. Although a crime, prosecutions for perjury are rare, because a defendant will argue he/she merely made a mistake or misunderstood.
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http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/perjury
 
What I think they should get:
A) 5 years and very large fine
B) £100 fine
C) 30 days and £1000 fine

What they probably got:
A) £100 fine
B) 30 days and £1000 fine
C) 5 years and very large fine
 
Based on Dickens' character Mr. Bumble's statement that "the law's an ass":

Case A

Two months probation each. Ordered to refund their ill-gotten gains. Nothing recovered as yet.

Case B

Charged with Operation of a Motor Vehicle Where Prohibited. Interpol warrant issued for arrest. Not arrested to date.

Case C

Two years less a day in the pen each.

:th:
 
anglolawyer said:
Here are three recent cases from the UK. I want you to pass sentence. No googling to look up what each defendant actually got.

Case A

Two businessmen perpetrated a series of mortgage frauds worth £750M (yes, million).
Click to expand...

lacking sufficient information to make an informed assessment.

Case B

A guy twice drove his Range Rover up mount Snowdon (Wales's highest peak) and parked it there. He failed to turn up at court and posted a message on the courthouse saying 'you can't catch me'.

Note: Snowdon is three thousand feet high. A railway line runs all the way to the top where there is a snack bar.
Click to expand...

misdemeanor trespass and traffic counts, contempt of court fillings

Case C

A guy sued his local authority (local government) after injuring himself when crossing their land. He was supported by two witnesses. They all signed 'statements of truth' to support the claim but the claim was dismissed when CCTV evidence showed they had made it up. The local authority then successfully brought proceedings for contempt of court and they were duly sentenced.
Click to expand...

They should have been charged with attempted defraudment of the principality as well as contempt of court.

I will reveal the answers after a few guesses as I think they are interesting. For the Americans, we are a lot softer than you so I will probably have to halve your guesses to bring them into line but it's the ratio between them that interests me mainly. Er, no one got the death penalty btw.:)
Click to expand...

Having now read through the rest of the thread, I more or less agree with the sentencing given, except that property and holdings of the first case fraud defendants should have been seized and only returned in the event that restitution, was paid in full in a timely manner. Lacking sufficient property to offset restitution, the individuals should be personally remanded to custody until they serve time equivilant to repayment or otherwise arrange restitution.
 
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