• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Sentencing decisions please

anglolawyer

Banned
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
13,037
Location
Guilford
You know the format by now. No googling. If you already know the outcomes, please use spoilers if you want to discuss the sentences.

Case A

Two greedy RBS bankers used their jobs to run £3million property fraud. Andrew Ratnage, 50, and his boss Raymond Pask, 54, guilty of scam
Pair set up fake companies and used relatives' names to get mortgages
Bankers borrowed £3m and bought five homes in London, Kent and Essex
All the cash came from their own bank NatWest, which is owned by RBS.

The scam also boosted their bonuses to more than £50,000-a-year - on one occasion taking it to £78,000 for Ratnage.
The mortgage applications were submitted to their own bank without the pair ever revealing who was behind them and they also decided to forge documents to inflate the value of homes.
Once their own bank, which is majority-owned by the taxpayer, lent them the cash they were able to buy two properties in fashionable Stoke Newington in north-east London and another yards from the sea in Whitstable, Kent.
Two more were also bought in east London and Essex.
At one stage Pask was living in a house worth more than £1million and sitting on a £1.2million pension pot.


Case B

Couple swindled up to £1million from the NHS [National Health Service] to fund their luxury lifestyle of globetrotting and flashy cars
Couple supplied equipment and services to the NHS at inflated prices
They pocketed £300,000, but the value of the fraud was around £1million
Used profits to buy holiday homes in Cyprus, Dubai and the Lake District
They also bought a brand new Jaguar convertible and a Mercedes.

Leigh worked for the NHS in purchasing and was responsible for buying mostly computers and other office equipment for various NHS departments. His partner Hancox also worked for the NHS.
For more than seven years, Leigh used a company called Action Direct Technology Ltd - of which his partner Hancox was the owner, sole shareholder and company director - to buy overpriced goods and defraud his employer the NHS.
The pair also used Bibi's IT Solutions Ltd and Wiscom Technology Ltd as a front to disguise their ongoing fraud between January 2001 and October 2008.
Sgt Laura Walters, of GMP, said: 'This couple were involved in an well-orchestrated and meticulously planned conspiracy to defraud the NHS out of hundreds of thousands of pounds.
'This was not a get-rich-quick scheme - this was a sustained criminal enterprise stretching over seven years. Seven years is a long time to see the error of your ways but these individuals showed no remorse for their actions.
'In fact, we believe the very reason they switched companies later on was to cover up what they had done should there ever be an investigation. We also seized hundreds of email exchanges which showed they went to great lengths to cover their tracks by cooking the books to give them an air of authenticity.
'It is also clear they used the proceeds of their criminal activity to live a lavish lifestyle - the couple had a holiday home in the Lake District and they also invested in property in the United Arab Emirates and Cyprus.
'I also want to stress this is by no means a victimless crime. It is the NHS they scammed out of thousands of pounds - money which the NHS badly needs for the treatment of people with genuine illness. Every penny they plundered is money that was diverted away from someone in desperate need of medical treatment.
 
I know how both of these ended up. I can't say that I'm the slightest bit surprised, except that I would perhaps have expected one of the sentences to be more draconian.
 
My decision is that you should stop using sentence fragments so much as well as using more mainstream punctuation. Try the Oxford comma.
 
Case A: the defendants, being found guilty, must eat, in entirety, all of the homes and properties they purchased in their nefarious criminalings. That includes the buildings, furnishings, vegetation, structural components, pipes and wires, pavements, and every bit of earth down to bedrock. The empty spaces can be turned into public parks and ornamental ponds.

Case B: the defendants having defrauded the healthcare system, must atone by participating fully in that same healthcare system by receiving one each of every surgical operation and treatment currently possible in medicine. Since this includes all possible amputations and organ removals it seems unlikely there will be anything left of the defendants afterward. What is left can be used to fertilize the lawns and feed the ducks in the public parks and ornamental lakes from Case A.

Thus speaketh Justice TragicMonkey, "the Park-Maker", who goes down in history as beautifying both the urban landscape and justice itself.
 
Fraud cases can have wildly disparate sentences depending on the circumstances. One of the biggest factors upon sentencing is typically whether or not the offenders have made restitution to the defrauded parties.

Did the accused in these two scenarios make restitution? If not, I would guess jail time and a restitution order in both cases, but probably shorter jail time for the bankers than for the ones who defrauded the NHS. If so, I would guess no jail time but suspended sentences of varying lengths with probation and perhaps a community service component as well.
 
Hmmm..

Case A) Commercial Fraud against private persons.... I'll say 2 year suspended, 100 hours community work

Case B) Fraud against a Government Department... I'll say 7 years.

Well I was close on A, but a little high on B
 
Last edited:
Fraud cases can have wildly disparate sentences depending on the circumstances. One of the biggest factors upon sentencing is typically whether or not the offenders have made restitution to the defrauded parties.

Did the accused in these two scenarios make restitution? If not, I would guess jail time and a restitution order in both cases, but probably shorter jail time for the bankers than for the ones who defrauded the NHS. If so, I would guess no jail time but suspended sentences of varying lengths with probation and perhaps a community service component as well.

There was no loss in Case A, at least not as a result of the mortgage frauds per se, while in Case B the NHS lost real money. In Case A, their bonuses were enhanced by what their employer took to be arms length transactions. So there was some loss. A solicitor involved in mortgage fraud can expect jail.
 
Hmmm..

Case A) Commercial Fraud against private persons.... I'll say 2 year suspended, 100 hours community work

Case B) Fraud against a Government Department... I'll say 7 years.

Well I was close on A, but a little high on B

Bloody good! I was astonished the first two were not imprisoned. That's why I posted these two. What happened to deterrence?
 
Case A: the defendants, being found guilty, must eat, in entirety, all of the homes and properties they purchased in their nefarious criminalings. That includes the buildings, furnishings, vegetation, structural components, pipes and wires, pavements, and every bit of earth down to bedrock. The empty spaces can be turned into public parks and ornamental ponds.

Case B: the defendants having defrauded the healthcare system, must atone by participating fully in that same healthcare system by receiving one each of every surgical operation and treatment currently possible in medicine. Since this includes all possible amputations and organ removals it seems unlikely there will be anything left of the defendants afterward. What is left can be used to fertilize the lawns and feed the ducks in the public parks and ornamental lakes from Case A.

Thus speaketh Justice TragicMonkey, "the Park-Maker", who goes down in history as beautifying both the urban landscape and justice itself.

:mad: you weren't supposed to google the answers.
 
Huh? She might look like a man, but Hancox is female, her first name is Deborah.

Oh. I didn't see any photos. They kept referring to "partners", which I took to mean they were a gay couple.

Still, if she looks like a man, God might get confused and punish them anyway.
 
Last edited:
(Thinking US here and didn't click spoilers): I'd say about 5 years in both cases after a plea deal.
 
Well, we can probably see the answers now, I guess. Case A got nothing, while Case B got 5 1/2 years. I say 'nothing' but in fact they got suspended sentences. The judge thought they had been through enough. I find that unbelievable and respectfully disagree with those who would allow actual loss to greatly influence the outcome. I would have popped them inside for 4-5 years.
 

Back
Top Bottom