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Scientism??

Elektrix

Critical Thinker
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
295
Hi all,

My school newspaper seems to have published another questionable piece, although I don't know that it's such a blatant attack on science. It seems to concern itself with something called "scientism" (something which I hadn't even heard of).

http://www.broadsideonline.com/article.php?date=02-27-2006&section=opinion&article=lowell.txt

I wasn't quite sure what to make of this one (it wasn't as blatant as the previous pro-ID piece which I responded to, thanks to the help of everyone here). It almost seems to be setting up some sort of straw man (this claim that science is held up as being able to explain everything), only to tear it down. The meat of it seems to have some sort of anti-evolution bias, making the claim that some scientists hold up evolution as the sole explanation of humanity......... the part that stuck out the most to me, and that seems to warrant response, is:

However, scientism lacks the tools necessary to answer some questions. The scientific method is restricted to the quantifiable and as such is incapable of providing answers to the most penetrating questions regarding human existence and the purpose of life. For the answers to these questions, we appropriately turn to metaphysical inquiry, that is, philosophy and religion.

The application of scientism in modern thought is most exemplified by the attempt to present evolution as a universal theory of reality, one which is not limited to a theory of the origins of various species but which dubiously asserts that the totality of human existence can be explained through the lens of evolution.

The inescapable effect is a reduction of the world in which we live to a meaningless “cosmic accident.” Human beings are reduced to “clever apes,” and the human experience as such is reduced to a series of “sensory experiences.” Extrapolating from biological data alone, disciples of scientism wrongly conclude that human beings differ only by degrees from other animals. However, human experience suggests otherwise. Human consciousness, language (specifically the ability to express thought and abstract concepts which, ironically, is a central premise for important scientific breakthroughs), the arts, law, politics and--dare we say--faith are all unique to the human experience and are hardly supportive of the hypothesis that human beings do not differ in any fundamental way from all other animals.

This just strikes me as odd because it doesn't really make sense to me...... I'm not sure how many people are actually guilty of this, or whether science does reduce things as he suggests here (which sound more like what you hear from creationists).

I don't know, I'm pretty sure this piece warrants a response as well, but I'm not sure what to make of it. Is "scientism" really something that is an actual problem? Most scientists I know at least seem pretty well aware of the boundaries of what science and cannot explain.

-Elektrix
 
The application of scientism in modern thought is most exemplified by the attempt to present evolution as a universal theory of reality, one which is not limited to a theory of the origins of various species but which dubiously asserts that the totality of human existence can be explained through the lens of evolution.

Who is attempting to present evolution as a universal theory of reality?
Who is making the dubious assertion that the totality of human existence can be explained through evolution?

Did they provide examples? References?

Sounds like a straw man to me.
 
I don't know, I'm pretty sure this piece warrants a response as well, but I'm not sure what to make of it. Is "scientism" really something that is an actual problem? Most scientists I know at least seem pretty well aware of the boundaries of what science and cannot explain.

Yes, "scientism" is a real problem, although possibly less so than it was a few decades back when the entire college of social sciences was suffering through a collective, acute case of "physics envy." "Scientism"-ists (the English language lacks an appropriate word) are probably as close as reality comes to the so-called "pseudoskeptics" that the various credophilic brigade like to trot out as the reason that their unsupported theories remain unsupported; "scientism"-ists are the sort of people who regard the "laws of physics as currently understood" to be equivalent to "the laws of physics," and so reject out-of-hand the possibility that telepathy could exist.

So a question like "does God exist" or "what is the ultimate source of morality" or "are we just a brain-in-a-box" are held to be unanswerable within the objective, evidence-based, rationalist, scientific paradigm. If asked one of those questions, a genuine scientist would respond "that's not my department -- theology is one floor up." A "scientism"-ist would respond "that question is not meaningful."

Basically, "scientism" is the difference between "I will believe it when I see it" and "I won't believe it, even if I see it." Unfortunately, the ID proponents have not been able to produce any evidence at all in support of their pseudotheology. The question "did humans evolve from protosimians" is an objective, evidence-based, rationalist question and the answer is part of genuine science. All the evidence we have so far amassed says "yes."
 
Hi all,

My school newspaper seems to have published another questionable piece, although I don't know that it's such a blatant attack on science. It seems to concern itself with something called "scientism" (something which I hadn't even heard of).

Actually, it doesn't. It's beef is mostly with science, even though it fails to admit that.

I wasn't quite sure what to make of this one (it wasn't as blatant as the previous pro-ID piece which I responded to, thanks to the help of everyone here). It almost seems to be setting up some sort of straw man (this claim that science is held up as being able to explain everything), only to tear it down.

So was that your reply on the website? Congratulations!

And yes, it is a massive strawman. I am not sure if it got even torn down, though.

I don't know, I'm pretty sure this piece warrants a response as well, but I'm not sure what to make of it. Is "scientism" really something that is an actual problem? Most scientists I know at least seem pretty well aware of the boundaries of what science and cannot explain.

It is not a problem, because if it exists it's not big enough and doesn't appear to have enough support to ever grow big ... I will try to respond to the actual article later, but I am finding it difficult to address it - too much seems ot be wrong with it.

Rasmus.

Edited to fix quotes
 
Last edited:
Yeah, that's where I'm kind of stuck. From what I've read about scientism itself, I don't think I disagree with the basic statement or claim. In fact, I'm not sure who would disagree with that (again, I'm not really clear on how big a problem this is).

I have some suspicion that the author does have a religious bias (I tried to see if he had written any previous pieces or letters, and I did come across this one, which is more explicit in making its point:

Article Based on Prejudice

Nicholas Provenzo refers to a Christian group handing out information about God as a "threat." A threat to what? They are simply exercising their freedom of speech and offering free literature about their faith. That is not intimidating to the average individual who is tolerant of other citizen's rights.

Provenzo argued about reason versus faith, but he is, in fact, religious: he is an atheist. Atheism is a belief system that posits that there is no God. The atheist believes in what they deem to be an absolute truth, that the absolute being is a "supreme nothing." How unreasonable.

There are some things man cannot know or comprehend. Yet Provenzo, from his article, knows everything. He knows that God does not exist. Among all creatures, man is both intelligent and free and is also alone in this respect. We have dominion over all other living things. What a concept. In his article, Provenzo also described our nation as having a "secular foundation." It is secular only in the fact that the clergy of one religion do not exercise authoritarian control in political office.

I kind of suspect that he isn't really upset about the actual problem of "scientism", as much as that I think he might perceive anyone talking about evolution, the big bang, etc. as being guilty of scientism (I am going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that he might be accusing people of scientism who aren't actually engaging in that).

I don't know, I guess I might just let this one go, but I still wish I could figure out what to make of it. Normally I'd try and write a response to this as well, but it isn't as clear-cut as the pro-ID piece.

-Elektrix
 
Yeah, that's where I'm kind of stuck. From what I've read about scientism itself, I don't think I disagree with the basic statement or claim. In fact, I'm not sure who would disagree with that (again, I'm not really clear on how big a problem this is).

Well, that's the strawman.

Basically, the central claim behind the piece is :

The application of scientism in modern thought is most exemplified by the attempt to present evolution as a universal theory of reality, one which is not limited to a theory of the origins of various species but which dubiously asserts that the totality of human existence can be explained through the lens of evolution.

To the best of my knowledge, no one "attemps to present evolution as a universal theory of reality," in approximately the same sense (and for the same reason) that no one attempts to present PV=nRT as a universal theory of reality.

It's an "exemplification" that simply doesn't exist.

And, basically, its the same old "evolution is itself a religion" or "evolution is an atheist theory" canard trotted out, so any of the Usual Suspects (TalkOrigins or SkepticWiki) should have the refutations that you need if you want to respond.
 
Ignoring the use of the term "scientism" for a moment here, there are still some major problems...
The scientific method is restricted to the quantifiable and as such is incapable of providing answers to the most penetrating questions regarding human existence and the purpose of life. For the answers to these questions, we appropriately turn to metaphysical inquiry, that is, philosophy and religion.
The first flaw here is that they are exploiting people's insecurities about life ~ many people feel that life without purpose is meaningless and they are often led into religion because god supposedly has a higher purpose in mind for us all. Of course, the exploitation comes in here because purpose is a human construct in the first place.

The application of scientism in modern thought is most exemplified by the attempt to present evolution as a universal theory of reality, one which is not limited to a theory of the origins of various species but which dubiously asserts that the totality of human existence can be explained through the lens of evolution.
Errm... wtf? Are they confusing evolution and cosmology here? Nah, not quite.. still that is a sentence of unadulterated tripe.
This is nothing more than pseudoscientific flapdoodle designed to confuse the under-educated reader.

The inescapable effect is a reduction of the world in which we live to a meaningless “cosmic accident.” Human beings are reduced to “clever apes,” and the human experience as such is reduced to a series of “sensory experiences.” Extrapolating from biological data alone, disciples of scientism wrongly conclude that human beings differ only by degrees from other animals. However, human experience suggests otherwise. Human consciousness, language (specifically the ability to express thought and abstract concepts which, ironically, is a central premise for important scientific breakthroughs), the arts, law, politics and--dare we say--faith are all unique to the human experience and are hardly supportive of the hypothesis that human beings do not differ in any fundamental way from all other animals.
This is counter-intuitive to me ~ I find it fascinating that the human race has been able to evolve and adapt itself and it's environment to such vast degrees in such a short timescale. And yet it is quite humbling to witness how close to the other animals we still all are; it is merely our brains that separate us apart and even then the distinction is sometimes only slight (has anyone met my brother, for example?).
 
Accompanying this extraordinary accumulation of knowledge has been the emergence of a new form of science, one which mistakenly views itself as maintaining a monopoly on truth. This school of thought is commonly known as “scientism.”

There is so many things wrong with this already.

1) There is no such thing as a new form of science. Science is still done the samw way it always have been done, unless you were to look at new fields of scientific inquiry or new and exciting gadgets that scientists can use now.

2) Science cannot view itself as anything.

3) This school of thought might view "science" as one thing or another - I will agree to call it "scientism" for the time being.

Scientism is essentially a system of beliefs which posits that science alone can give a comprehensive and exclusive view of the world free from faith and philosophy. Those who adhere to this science-only philosophy dogmatically assert not only that science provides answers to all of life’s questions, but also that it has rendered philosophy and religion superfluous.

Informally, 'philosophy' may refer to a general world view or to an ethic or belief. (Wikipedia)

Maybe the author should visit the philosophy department one of these days and educate himself about the formal defintion of philosophy as a discipline. He might find that it has very little to do with religion and a lot to do with science.

Anyway - if one was to belive that "science alone can give a comprehensive and exclusive view of the world free from faith", then, yes, this would render religion superfluous. A very trivial discovery.

The quesation here is if such people really exists, and to what degree they adhere to this summary of their position.

It is entirely possible to fully describe Beethoven's 9th using math. (what else is the musical notation, after all?) Still, it's hardly the same as saying that concerts have been rendered superfluous. It does not mean that the music is degraded to a few numbers; it means that a few numbers, when expressed as sounds, can be a wonderful experiance. (A common CD goes as far to reduce the same piece to a series of ones and zeros. This, too, does not degrade the music, since it doesn't change the music. The music has never been anything else but a series of ones and zeroes expressed as sounds.)

Allow me to add that religion is superfluous only on its own merits.

Indeed, science is said to be the sole source of authentic knowledge, transcending - even trumping - all other disciplines and forms of reason or rational inquiry and, in the process, seeking to de-legitimize all that may imply a metaphysical character. In this respect, scientism reveals itself as inherently more ideological than scientific.

It is sad that he does not mention at least one other form of reason and rational inquiry. I can't think of any (still viewing philosophy as intrinsicially scientific).

It is equalyl sad that he does not specify how those alleged other forms of reason would have a "metaphysical character". It is my suspicion that it would be very easy to show that they are not "legitimite".

Then again, I am unsure what he means by that, too. What frame of reference would let me view tarot cards at legitimite or illegitimite respectively? How about smoking, or soccer? It is just another empty word he uses. I suspect that he complains that religions is not regarded as a legitimite source of truth.

Here, it would be up to him to clarify what kind of truth he is seeking, and to demonstrate that it can be found in religion. (Of course, how he would do that without accepting the scientific methos is beyond me. Then again, it is also beyond me what he does at a university to begin with, if he does not value the scientific method ...)

This ideological slant has led some in the scientific community even to transgress well-established boundaries of scientific inquiry in order to make assertions regarding questions which are purely philosophical.

Not only should he pay a visit to the philosophy department, he should also be chained to the benches of a lecture theatre and be forced to sit through a first semester introduction. (All they while being hit over the head with a dictionary for my personal gratification and as compensation for pains endured here!)

At the very least he should relate to his readers what it means if a question is "purely philosophoical". I suspect he might not view his religion as "purely philosophical"...

Unfortunately, it is not uncommon to hear even some of George Mason University’s own professors allude to the so-called tenets of scientism in their lectures.

The same professors, no doubt, that have failed to teach this particular student. Seriously, names and specific examples might have helped to make more of this than a mere ad hominem.

I further notice that this thing called "scientism" is no longer just a view held by many, with a name easily recognized, now it also has it's own "tenets". It is too bad that we only have his word on the truth on any of this.

However, scientism lacks the tools necessary to answer some questions. The scientific method is restricted to the quantifiable and as such is incapable of providing answers to the most penetrating questions regarding human existence and the purpose of life. For the answers to these questions, we appropriately turn to metaphysical inquiry, that is, philosophy and religion.

[insert further remark on what philosophy is *here*]

Isn't it funny then, how religion has failed us in providing any useful answers, in revealing any reliable truths so far in all its history?

I could deconstruct his claims here further, but I prefer the simplicity of it: Religion does not reveal any truths. (And nobody denies that individuals can sometimes gain comfort from religion, so he'd better not even go there. We're running out of straw ...)

The application of scientism in modern thought is most exemplified by the attempt to present evolution as a universal theory of reality, one which is not limited to a theory of the origins of various species but which dubiously asserts that the totality of human existence can be explained through the lens of evolution.

I am not aware of any such attempt. Now I would demand evidence for his assertions, since he is clearly beyond what could be considered a mere "opinion".

The inescapable effect is a reduction of the world in which we live to a meaningless “cosmic accident.” Human beings are reduced to “clever apes,” and the human experience as such is reduced to a series of “sensory experiences.”

"meanigless" is a value judgement, and "reduced" does at least imply a value judgement.

Being a "clever ape" to me is something mindboggingly phantastic, wonderful and awe inspiring. (The same holds true for mere apes, too, even though they might not be able to view this the same way.)

I have nothing but my sensory experiances and what my brain makes from them. And that is nothing less than amazing!

Be that as it may, the question should not be "do we likes this", or "does izt sound nice", but "is it true". the author here seems to object to the theory because he dislikes what he belives to be its consequences.

Extrapolating from biological data alone, disciples of scientism wrongly conclude that human beings differ only by degrees from other animals.

Why would that be a bad thing?

However, human experience suggests otherwise. Human consciousness, language (specifically the ability to express thought and abstract concepts which, ironically, is a central premise for important scientific breakthroughs), the arts, law, politics and--dare we say--faith are all unique to the human experience

Wrong. Plain and simple.

It bugs me that I will never have an opportunity to speak with some of te apes that have been trained speaking sign - but there is enough literature available that plain shows the arrogance that led to the above paragraph. (And if that isn't enough there is much, much more material about animals displaying behavior that some would view as exclusively human.)

and are hardly supportive of the hypothesis that human beings do not differ in any fundamental way from all other animals.

We see the same mistake again: The value judgement made here says that we have to be different, in order to be something.

It is ismply not true that I am "just another animal". I am an animal, and as such I am special. Mayn aspects of my life are unique compared to other animals, and that, too, makes me special. But I do not require to be somehow better or different from the common wombat on a metaphysical level for that.

It is important to differentiate between what is proven science and what is purely theoretical conjecture. The problem with practitioners of scientism is that they blur the line between the two in order to present ideological suppositions as scientific or factual and thereby seek to shut down any other form of rational inquiry or debate.

Again, no mention of what these other forms of rational inquiry should be. Pitty.

In this way, scientism is the ally of materialism and the antithesis of metaphysics. Like all forms of ideology, however, scientism detracts from the traditions and purposes of the university setting.

Science is the antithesis of metaphysics, and for a reason!

I cannot hlep but wonder what exactly these traditions should be, that would allow metaphysics to take a place within a university. My bet is: Traditions that had better be ended sooner than later.

Rasmus.
 
Wow Rasmus, you made some great points! I'm still trying to decide if I want to or can write a letter to the editor about this piece. I think it does warrant a response, and I think you especially showed just how much is wrong with it; but I don't think I can boil things down to a 150 words or less letter explaining why.
 
Wow Rasmus, you made some great points! I'm still trying to decide if I want to or can write a letter to the editor about this piece. I think it does warrant a response, and I think you especially showed just how much is wrong with it; but I don't think I can boil things down to a 150 words or less letter explaining why.

That was my problem too. You could easily respond with 150 words or more after every single sentence.

Maybe we should reconsider beating him over the head with a dictionary after all? :halo:
 
I don't think I can boil things down to a 150 words or less letter explaining why.


Yeah, well, it only takes seconds to make a claim, but it can take months to disprove it -- if one's opponent is not hampered by scholarship and facts.

Similarly, I can make a claim in only four words -- "Wearing socks causes cancer" -- that it would take a trained doctor five pages to explain just how wrong I am. You might respond simply by pointing that out -- his claim is a vague one that hinges both on a fundamental misunderstanding of the natures of science and evolutionary theory, and on a strawman misrepresentation that does not, in fact, reflect how scientists and scholars actually think. It's easy enough to put your own words in someone else's mouth -- but that doesn't mean that they said them, and it reflects badly on the honesty of the first person.
 
That was my problem too. You could easily respond with 150 words or more after every single sentence.

Maybe we should reconsider beating him over the head with a dictionary after all? :halo:
Or maybe just refute the biggest, most obvious straw men with a short, concise answer? It should be possible.

The only other option would be to ... do the same thing he did but with religion. And that is not the most popular approach of course.
 
Or maybe just refute the biggest, most obvious straw men with a short, concise answer? It should be possible.

I see "not good enough" written all over this.

It's a mess of incoherent and unsubstantiated accusations. If you remove part of the mess, you're still left with more mess. And that just might send the message that the reply is right about a detail, but the whole thing more or less stands intact and has something to it.

Rasmus.
 
I see "not good enough" written all over this.

It's a mess of incoherent and unsubstantiated accusations. If you remove part of the mess, you're still left with more mess. And that just might send the message that the reply is right about a detail, but the whole thing more or less stands intact and has something to it.

Rasmus.

Yeah, that's my concern too. I'd love to try and do a detailed refutation like what Rasmus did, but there isn't really the space for it. And if I did just try and highlight the essential strawman, I think the overall point might be missed.

I think it seems clear that the point of this opinion piece isn't really to address this concept of "scientism", but to try and frame actual scientific theories in light of "scientism" and thus try and discredit it that way, without having to just come out and say it, which would reveal what the real agenda is.

-Elektrix
 
Yeah, that's my concern too. I'd love to try and do a detailed refutation like what Rasmus did, but there isn't really the space for it. And if I did just try and highlight the essential strawman, I think the overall point might be missed.

I think it seems clear that the point of this opinion piece isn't really to address this concept of "scientism", but to try and frame actual scientific theories in light of "scientism" and thus try and discredit it that way, without having to just come out and say it, which would reveal what the real agenda is.

-Elektrix

Would a series of replies be in order?

A really long article, adressing this opinion piece over the course of maybe three to five editions? It is, after all, the second such article in a relatively short time. Do you know who is responsible for these being printed any why they are doing it?

Maybe the editors are not aware of the backgrounds themselves, and I think a student nespaper would do well to defend a scientific viewpoint. Perhaps the editors agree.

Rasmus.
 
The inescapable effect is a reduction of the world in which we live to a meaningless “cosmic accident.” Human beings are reduced to “clever apes,” and the human experience as such is reduced to a series of “sensory experiences.”

"meanigless" is a value judgement, and "reduced" does at least imply a value judgement.

Being a "clever ape" to me is something mindboggingly phantastic, wonderful and awe inspiring. (The same holds true for mere apes, too, even though they might not be able to view this the same way.)

I have nothing but my sensory experiances and what my brain makes from them. And that is nothing less than amazing!

Be that as it may, the question should not be "do we likes this", or "does izt sound nice", but "is it true". the author here seems to object to the theory because he dislikes what he belives to be its consequences.

Perhaps you could just focus on this part(I was going to write somthing similar until I saw Rasmus' post). I think this is really to root of the problem. The rest is a lot of mental gymnastics to rationalise his dislike of some of the answers that science gives us.
 
Would a series of replies be in order?

A really long article, adressing this opinion piece over the course of maybe three to five editions? It is, after all, the second such article in a relatively short time. Do you know who is responsible for these being printed any why they are doing it?

Maybe the editors are not aware of the backgrounds themselves, and I think a student nespaper would do well to defend a scientific viewpoint. Perhaps the editors agree.

Rasmus.

Yeah, although that might be overkill. I'm still working on this, trying to see if I can come up with something more succint to reply with. I'm thinking that a long article or series of articles would probably be overkill.

As far as I know, there isn't any specific agenda here. I mean, I don't think that there is any sort of editorial decision or concerted effort to publish some series of anti-science op-ed pieces. Generally, I haven't seen science-related topics dealt with much at all. I don't know if there was any sort of coordination or not between this piece and the previous pro-ID piece (I have to admit, when I first saw the headline when I was checking to see if they published my response to the ID piece, I almost thought that it was some sort of parody or satire..... until I read the full piece). They do seem like two different approaches though (this latter piece doesn't seem to be as overtly anti-science as the first one).

It is unusual though; their weren't any previous pro-evolution stories published or anything, so it does possibly seem like more than a coincedence that these two pieces were submitted and published so closely to one another.

I do think the editors themselves are generally open to defending a scientific viewpoint though. It might be that they feel that publishing these pieces is important in order to show the other side of an issue? Editorially, the current group of editors doesn't seem to have any specific slant; most of the topics the editors themselves write about are usually political in nature, and they've approached things from both conservative and liberal viewpoints; and they also seem to publish both conservative and liberal opinion pieces from students.

I don't think that even has much to do with any of those, although the writers of these two-science related pieces have submitted conservative-oriented political pieces before.

-Elektrix
 
Perhaps you could just focus on this part(I was going to write somthing similar until I saw Rasmus' post). I think this is really to root of the problem. The rest is a lot of mental gymnastics to rationalise his dislike of some of the answers that science gives us.

That's a good point. That would also help in the sense that it would help me get to the real meat of the issue without seeming like I'm attacking the surface premise (I definitely don't want to come across as arguing in favor of the idea that science can explain everything, or even that people claim it can).

-Elektrix
 
"Scientism" is something that philostophers and post-modernists accuse scientists of because they're pissed off that science gets more funding (of course, philostophers and post-modernists don't spend much time filling out grant proposals, thinking it beneath them.)
 

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