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Sam Harris says it like it is

If history has shown us one thing, it is that those who sacrifice their spines to save their necks almost always end up losing their necks as well.
 
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And that was sort of a pointless ad hom.

I, too, will declare the article is worth reading, and for what its worth, also very sober and honest.

I suspect there are some folks, in this forum, who are still in kindergarten.

Pointless, maybe, but true IMO. And, of course, not an ad hom. :D Maybe you should look that up.
 
slam, as it is currently understood and practiced by vast numbers of the world's Muslims, is antithetical to civil society. A recent poll showed that thirty-six percent of British Muslims (ages 16-24) believe that a person should be killed for leaving the faith. Sixty-eight percent of British Muslims feel that their neighbors who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted, and seventy-eight percent think that the Danish cartoonists should have been brought to justice. And these are British Muslims.
Sort of an idiot indeed.

(Sobering, though)
 
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Pointless, maybe, but true IMO. And, of course, not an ad hom. :D Maybe you should look that up.
Are you claiming that it isn't an ad hom because you're not using it to support an argument? If so, what was the purpose of your post?
 
Personally, I would like to agree with him, and he does present the facts well, but I don't like how he phrased things as a "clash of cultures" of our "civility" against their "traditional Islamism".

And the tired old "people against hate speech are the real ____-ists because they think _____ can't handle blah blah blah" is silly.
 
Pointless, maybe, but true IMO.
Obviously you feel so strongly about this opinion (which you are entitled to), that you felt it was a priority to point out, even if the article was highly intelligent. You probably didn't even read the article, did you?

If you did, please point out which bits of it were "idiotic".

If not, you are clearly dismissing the whole thing, because you think he is an "idiot", and that would be a bit of an ad hom, would it not?


Most people, it seems, are allowing terrorist theologies to thrive by giving in to fear. Perhaps we should all do more to stand up to this nonsense. If anyone disagrees with that, I would expect quality counter arguments.
 
Before going into the actual gist of the article: can't these authors get their facts on Dutch happenings straight? OK, some opinion on it to boot too:

Geert Wilders, conservative Dutch politician and provocateur,
Personally, I think "conservative" is a far too decent word to label Wilders with. "populist" is better suited.

Witness the free world's response to Fitna: The Dutch government sought to ban the film outright,
The Christian-Democrat Foreign Minister had his civil servants look into that. When that leaked, the Labour ministers revolted. So no, not a government opinion.

Dutch television refused to air Fitna unedited
So what? Wilders refused them to see it before airing it. They were damned right to refuse that. An option that was never discussed, BTW: Wilders' party, as every other political party in NL, regularly gets a 5-10 min. slot to air their view. He could have used that slot, couldn't he?

When Wilders declared his intention to release the film over the internet, his U.S. web-host, Network Solutions, took his website offline.
Boohoo. He had a "coming soon" page on that website for weeks before the website went offline. It was blatantly obvious that the reason given was not the real reason.

Of course, there were immediate calls for a boycott of Dutch products throughout the Muslim world. In response, Dutch corporations placed ads in countries like Indonesia, denouncing the film in self-defense.
Yeah, trade is this country's second name. When we fought our war of independence, most trade was done with Spain, the evil oppressor :). Let's be real: Wilders pretends this movie was only about Dutch muslims. Why then stir the pot world-wide about your upcoming movie?

In Afghanistan, women in burqas could be seen burning the Dutch flag;
Indeed. The most funny about it was that they didn't have the flag right: with a purple strip instead of a blue one :)

the Taliban carried out at least two revenge attacks on Dutch troops, resulting in five Dutch casualties
Now was that really about Fitna? The Taliban were on the offensive there anyway.

First, and most important, my friend and colleague Ayaan Hirsi Ali happens to be among the hunted. Because of the failure of Western governments to make it safe for people to speak openly about the problem of Islam,
What does he mean with failure? How does he think governments can somehow prevent people from being violent? And both people mentioned here, Ayaan and Wilders, have every opportunity they wish to speak in public and say what they want. Yes, Van Gogh was murdered - the government had offered him protection, urged him to accept it, but he refused. Ehsan Jami was beaten up - he also had been offered protection after asking for it, but then he changed his mind and refused it.

I and others must raise a mountain of private funds to help pay for her round-the-clock protection.
Either Harris is lying or Ayaan is defrauding him. Ayaan's round-the-clock protection - which indeed costs some 80,000 EUR/month - is paid by the Dutch government. Not by his "mountain of private funds", but by my tax money. Lying about money is a cardinal sin here!

The problem is not, as is often alleged, that governments cannot afford to protect every person who speaks out against Muslim intolerance. The problem is that so few people do speak out. If there were ten thousand Ayaan Hirsi Ali's, the risk to each would be radically reduced.
Ten thousand? Where do you get so many people whose opinions matter? Does he really think that you or me get death threats too when we go stand on the market square and shout that Muslims are intolerant? Get real. By the way, that is very much what is happening over here. Muslim-bashing is the new national sport, even more popular than bashing the coach of the national soccer team. Thank <insert deity> we'll return to that in a few months.

Given our shamefully ineffectual response to the fatwa against Salman Rushdie
I'm a bit at a loss what he refers to here. Can someone clarify? I mean, I know Salman Rushdie was in hiding for quite some years. Nowadays, I see him at least once a year at the TV show of the Dutch Book Gala with another gorgeous blonde at his side. That fatwah has been lifted - was that despite "our" response?
 
(snip)Either Harris is lying or Ayaan is defrauding him. Ayaan's round-the-clock protection - which indeed costs some 80,000 EUR/month - is paid by the Dutch government. Not by his "mountain of private funds", but by my tax money. Lying about money is a cardinal sin here!
Neither is lying. The money is for her protection outside Holland. Info here.

I'm a bit at a loss what he refers to here. Can someone clarify? I mean, I know Salman Rushdie was in hiding for quite some years. Nowadays, I see him at least once a year at the TV show of the Dutch Book Gala with another gorgeous blonde at his side. That fatwah has been lifted - was that despite "our" response?
That's incorrect. The fatwa has not been lifted, and has repeatedly been reaffirmed.
 
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Obviously you feel so strongly about this opinion (which you are entitled to), that you felt it was a priority to point out, even if the article was highly intelligent. You probably didn't even read the article, did you?

If you did, please point out which bits of it were "idiotic".

If not, you are clearly dismissing the whole thing, because you think he is an "idiot", and that would be a bit of an ad hom, would it not?


Most people, it seems, are allowing terrorist theologies to thrive by giving in to fear. Perhaps we should all do more to stand up to this nonsense. If anyone disagrees with that, I would expect quality counter arguments.

I find the entire position to be kind of silly. *shrugs* I find Sam Harris to be idiotic. I dismiss him pretty easily because of it. Clearly, you've got a pretty serious crush on him, and I'm sure he'll send you an autographed photo if you ask nicely. :p

"Terrorist theologies"? Really? Maybe a good game plan is to stop reading the script that the actual terrorists have written for the West, as a good start. After he cuts out the hate speech and pandering to fear and bigotry, he could maybe explain how it is so "dangerous" to speak against terrorists and religions, and how "few" people "dare" to do it, when he's clearly and completely full of sour owl poop. It reminds me of when Ann Coulter complained about how conservatives cannot be heard in the mainstream media... on ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CNBC, FNC, CNN... The complaint just doesn't ring true. Neither does most of Harris's little screed.

Generally speaking, I've heard massive amounts of criticism of Islam, and have added some of my own. It seems idiotic to me, in the face of the piles of valid criticism out there, plus the mountains of less than valid criticism, to claim that part of the problem is that no one dares criticize Islam. :rolleyes:
 
Neither is lying. The money is for her protection outside Holland. Info here.
It only says there:
5. Isn’t it true that the Dutch would still protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali if she remained in Holland?

The Dutch government has said as much. But the offer does not seem to be in good faith. The threat to Ms. Hirsi Ali is actually greatest in Holland, and it is much more expensive to protect her there. In fact, the security precautions necessary to keep her safe in Holland are quite stifling. She is much better placed in the U.S. to do her work. (For more on this subject, please see the opinion piece I wrote with Salman Rushdie).
And since October 2007, Ayaan has returned to live in Holland. The issue was that the Dutch government was not willing to pay indefinitely if she'd remain a US resident. AFAIK, the security paid for by the Dutch government also extends to her speaking assignments outside the country. As to the last sentence: after publication of her book "Infidel", her security risk in the US was assessed as being as high as in Holland, according to Dutch newspapers.
 
It seems idiotic to me, in the face of the piles of valid criticism out there, plus the mountains of less than valid criticism, to claim that part of the problem is that no one dares criticize Islam. :rolleyes:

As to the last sentence: after publication of her book "Infidel", her security risk in the US was assessed as being as high as in Holland, according to Dutch newspapers.

I wonder why her security is at risk...

:eusa_think:
 
It only says there:

And since October 2007, Ayaan has returned to live in Holland. The issue was that the Dutch government was not willing to pay indefinitely if she'd remain a US resident. AFAIK, the security paid for by the Dutch government also extends to her speaking assignments outside the country. As to the last sentence: after publication of her book "Infidel", her security risk in the US was assessed as being as high as in Holland, according to Dutch newspapers.
I'm sure Sam Harris or Ms. Ali will be glad to explain what the money's for. Perhaps Harris' site needs to be updated.

ETA: from her website:
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, former Dutch parliamentarian and outspoken defender of women’s rights in Islamic societies, is at risk from a variety of extremist threats in both Europe and the United States. She has needed constant security protection since her life was first threatened in 2002. Up until October 1, 2007, this protection was provided by the Dutch government.

Now a permanent resident of the United States, Ms. Hirsi Ali must raise her own funds to oversee the financing of her costly—but necessary—protection. In response to the numerous private citizens who have expressed interest in helping Ms. Hirsi Ali fund her security detail, the Ayaan Hirsi Ali Security Trust has been established.
 
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