sacred name theory

[mylfmyhnr]

i've done what i thought was decent research into the "correct" name of the christian god and messiah after i was directed to a "sacred name" site. i've used the information i got on that sire here in a thread... after that, i will admit, i continued that research and have found rather different information. i guess i'm asking if someone can help me sort through all the chaff and figure out what this whole sacred name theory is all about. i've got conflicting theories on a jesus-zeus connection that are very different, and a theory that the NT was never written in hebrew at all... i have to admit that my head hurts with it. so, can anyone help?

 

[fuelair]

Well, from long years (secret atheist at the time) in the MYF (Methodist Youth Fellowship), we were taught that Yahweh was it, and the Hebrews had a thing about not writing the name so they dropped the vowels to get the YHWH bit. I assume you were Kabbalahing for some of the other stuff - keep in mind most any of that is historical times guessing/making up. Also suspect that a Jesus-Zeus tie-up would be awfully unlikely giving some really big differences between the stories/qualities given for each. Early versions of Xtian god would be closer to Zeus (skipping the going after women thing - unless the V. Mary stands in for all Zeus" love interest and J. for all his OOW kids).

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Aren't all Hebrew words written without vowels?

~~ Paul

 

[LibraryLady]

Aren't all Hebrew words written without vowels?

~~ Paul

Kind of. There are vowels that now exist for modern Hebrew which are used with ancient as well.

As to YHWH, you can take a look at this as well.

YHWH (Yahweh)

The sacred name of God in Jewish scriptures and tradition; also known as the tetragrammaton. Since Hebrew was written without vowels in ancient times, the four consonants YHWH contain no clue to their original pronunciation. They are generally rendered “Yahweh” in contemporary scholarship. In traditional Judaism, the name is not pronounced, but Adonai (“Lord”) or something similar is substituted. In most English versions of the Bible the tetragrammaton is represented by "LORD" (or less frequently, “Jehovah”).

 

[mylfmyhnr]

okay, makes sense. what about the whole Jesus-Zeus thing... i site that denouces the myth only talks about how the names aren't pronounced the same, but i found this site first and is where i started my research that clearly talks about literal replacement and not a translation difference. this argument seems to make a lot of sense to me, but as i'm not a biblical scholar i certainly don't want to convince myself of the wrong argument.

 

[~enigma~]

Kind of. There are vowels that now exist for modern Hebrew which are used with ancient as well.

As to YHWH, you can take a look at this as well.

There are nikkudim (vowel points) that are placed under consonants in written Hebrew. they usually get omitted since Hebrew has a limited vocabulary and is also context dependant. The derivation of the incorrect jehovah is interesting because it stems from someones incorrect understanding of Hebres nikkudim. As LL said, Adonai (Lord) was substituted for the tetragrammaton (YHVH). The nikkudim for Adonai were placed under the tetragrammaton mistakenly and the resulting word was yahovah. Where the J comes from is a total mystery. Then again, as far as names go the entire new testament is rabidly antisemitic in nature and all the Jewish names (that are translated correctly in the Tanach-old testament) are mistranslated or shall I say purposly mistranslated to "hide" the Jewishness of the characters so the story can appear as good christians against evil Jews.

 

[mylfmyhnr]

...so the story can appear as good christians against evil Jews.

that's the other thing i don't get... if the only difference between the jews before christ and the jews after christ was their unacceptance of him as the messiah, but christ was jewish, then doesn't it stand to reason that those (christian believers) that assepted christ were, in fact, jewish and those jews that didn't accept him were heritics? doesn't that make "christians" jewish and shouldn't then then use the torah as well? if christ=messiah is only valid as the fulfillment of the jewish prophesy how do they get off leaving the jewish ways (and that prohesy) behind?

 

[~enigma~]

that's the other thing i don't get... if the only difference between the Jews before christ and the Jews after christ was their unacceptance of him as the messiah, but christ was Jewish, then doesn't it stand to reason that those (christian believers) that assepted christ were, in fact, Jewish and those Jews that didn't accept him were heritics? doesn't that make "christians" Jewish and shouldn't then then use the Torah as well? if christ=messiah is only valid as the fulfillment of the Jewish prophesy how do they get off leaving the Jewish ways (and that prohesy) behind?

If you read the new testament you see that all of the disciples were Jewish and Luke was the only proselyte. You are correct that they are supposed to (according to their own new testament) study Moses (Tanach) in synagogue not the new testament in a made up church. As far as christians being Jewish...nope. The new testament clearly states in Acts that christians were the non-Jewish believers and Jewish believers were called followers of the way (not christians). It wasn't till Peter's epistle that Jews were even thought to be called christians.

 

[icantlogoff]

Something that this thread made me think about is regarding the lack of vowels in Hebrew, This is what i was always taught.
Now if this is the case, did that make the spelling of Adam ( as in Adam and eve) just 'DM'? i realise their is a big step in translation to english so excuse my ignorance, but this would have implications for all biblical names wouldn't it?

can someone answer that for me

Steve

 

[~enigma~]

Something that this thread made me think about is regarding the lack of vowels in Hebrew, This is what i was always taught.
Now if this is the case, did that make the spelling of Adam ( as in Adam and eve) just 'DM'? i realise their is a big step in translation to english so excuse my ignorance, but this would have implications for all biblical names wouldn't it?

can someone answer that for me

Steve

Nikkudim were introduced somewhere between 600-800 CE. Before you go half-cocked about the names in the old testament you really should understand that the names used have meaning. Look up Adam's Hebrew meaning.

 

[icantlogoff]

Yes i get that.. Adam (going from memory) meant ' from the earth ' or similar. I am interested as to how e.g Adam was written in Hebrew, and if their are no vowels, how did the name come to be pronounced

 

[~enigma~]

Yes i get that.. Adam (going from memory) meant ' from the earth ' or similar. I am interested as to how e.g Adam was written in Hebrew, and if their are no vowels, how did the name come to be pronounced

Written language comes before oral communication?

Here is Adam...next time do your own work mr. lazy christian.

 

[icantlogoff]

I believe ignorance is a quality of yours then? I am no Christian. I was merely asking a question, I believe that is what this forum can be used for.

So I am deeply sorry that I caused you so much aggravation, but i guess you always had the choice not to respond to my question, so why did you answer it and and then whine about it? ( that was rhetorical by the way) I wouldn't want to be accursed of being lazy and not researching your reasons why you can be so rude and make incorrect assumption about people.

Christian...lol

And if your not a Christian ( note i don't assume this) then your attitude give the rest of us a bad name.

 

[~enigma~]

I believe ignorance is a quality of yours then? I am no Christian. I was merely asking a question, I believe that is what this forum can be used for.

So I am deeply sorry that I caused you so much aggravation, but i guess you always had the choice not to respond to my question, so why did you answer it and and then whine about it? ( that was rhetorical by the way) I wouldn't want to be accursed of being lazy and not researching your reasons why you can be so rude and make incorrect assumption about people.

Christian...lol

And if your not a Christian ( note i don't assume this) then your attitude give the rest of us a bad name.

Your question has only been asked of me twice. Once by a nondenominational pastor and once by a JW cult elder. If you are neither a christian or a JW cult member I apologize for the accusation but what is the motivation for your question instead of going and looking up the information yourself? BTW, I am not a christian. Couldn't be one if I wanted since I am Jewish. If you really must know, I am an atheist.

 

[icantlogoff]

Your question has only been asked of me twice. Once by a nondenominational pastor and once by a JW cult elder. If you are neither a christian or a JW cult member I apologize for the accusation but what is the motivation for your question instead of going and looking up the information yourself? BTW, I am not a christian. Couldn't be one if I wanted since I am Jewish. If you really must know, I am an atheist.

Then we appear to be on the same page, I too am an Atheist. The reason i hadn't gone and looked up the information as it appear to be along the lines of the thread. My question was nothing more than a simple question without any motive behind it..i.e if no one really know how YHWH is pronounced, then doesn't this goes for all the names in the OT, which is this is the case is kinda funny really, That a 'god' so hell bent on making sure everyone worships him, would leave leave out any simple route for everyone to get his name and his henchmen right.

Now after thinking about that I guess ( without research) that this can't be the case and their must be a simple explanation for this, but it is true different group pronounce OT god differently... JW's...Jehovah, and others Yahweh etc. SO if the fundamental name of their God could be wrong did this apply to all the names in the bible, if it did then it makes it all that more silly.

I hope this cleared up my reason for the question.
Also I would normally research things myself, hence why i don't post very often and tend to ask for advise on what books to get. But after a rather good session of practicing making cocktails for an upcoming party, i was a little off skew this morning, and my research hadn't turned up anything.

BTW i used to be a JW ( so that's kinda funny one of the 2 who asked you this was an elder) ...but one more thing, why would they ask that, surely that question weakens their own interpretation of it?

Kind regards

Steve

 

[~enigma~]

Now after thinking about that I guess ( without research) that this can't be the case and their must be a simple explanation for this

There is. Spoken language comes before written language.

but it is true different group pronounce OT god differently... JW's...Jehovah, and others Yahweh etc.

You are forgetting that the correct pronunciation would be the one used by those who speak the language the tetragrammaton was, written in.

SO if the fundamental name of their God could be wrong did this apply to all the names in the bible, if it did then it makes it all that more silly.

The Hebrew names have meanings...they are words (some of them anyway). That is what you are overlooking.

I hope this cleared up my reason for the question.

Not fully but seeing your JW cult history your question is not surprising.

BTW i used to be a JW ( so that's kinda funny one of the 2 who asked you this was an elder) ...but one more thing, why would they ask that, surely that question weakens their own interpretation of it?

He was trying to say that since the correct pronunciation is not known, the JW version is correct. Funny thing is he was telling my that jehovah is in the Torah. He changed his mind when I whipped out a Chumash. It was a great experience watching the veins in his neck buldge as his face got redder in anger before he threw me out of his house for bringing in the devils tool (a Hebrew bible).

 

[icantlogoff]

I can guarantee you my 'history' had nothing to do with the question. In fact my question was based on the idea of how can any one know what the right way to pronounce a name is , exception Thur oral transmission, which then would Be subject to 'chinese whispers' over time.

As a side note i never accepted their translation of YHWH anyway ( i was raised a JW ..not joined) so my own logic raised that question , and they never answered it to my satisfaction.

Not that , that was the reason i left

regards

 

[Dancing David]

Something that this thread made me think about is regarding the lack of vowels in Hebrew, This is what i was always taught.
Now if this is the case, did that make the spelling of Adam ( as in Adam and eve) just 'DM'? i realise their is a big step in translation to english so excuse my ignorance, but this would have implications for all biblical names wouldn't it?

can someone answer that for me

Steve

Aleph is a vowel and a consonant.

 

[~enigma~]

Aleph is a vowel and a consonant.

Huh? What language are you referring to? Aleph in Hebrew AND Aramaic is silent.

 

[AgingYoung]

... if the only difference between the jews before christ and the jews after christ was their unacceptance of him as the messiah, but christ was jewish, then doesn't it stand to reason that those (christian believers) that assepted christ were, in fact, jewish and those jews that didn't accept him were heritics?

Heresy is an opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs. The first Christians were Jewish and also heretics from the Jewish perspective.

if christ=messiah is only valid as the fulfillment of the jewish prophesy how do they get off leaving the jewish ways (and that prohesy) behind?

It's not possible for anyone to obey the letter of Mosaic Law; there is no high priest. Neither is there a temple with the holy of holies for that priest to go into once a year to atone for the sins of the people. Jesus fulfilled that necessity. Of course this is a Christian perspective.

There is a joke about Christians that don't obey Levitical dietary law can still go to heaven; they just manage to get there sooner.

Gene