• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Run schools off "user fees"

Travis

Misanthrope of the Mountains
Travis
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
24,133
I was arguing with a high speed rail opponent (so a typical Monday night for me) when all of sudden he pulls out something I found rather appalling: he stated he was sick and tired of paying taxes for schools when he has no children. Then he went into a plan where schools would be done purely by user fees with the idea that the poor don't really need education anyways to do the basic jobs suited for them.

Seriously.

And this guy goes by the handle "Sobering Reality" too. :rolleyes:

Anyways this argument sounded a bit too much like it was lifted from some libertarian blog. Has anyone heard of a plan to do away with public education making the rounds lately?
 
I've heard that argument for years from a friend of my husband.

BTW, in California, schools can no longer ask for "user fees" for any extracurricular activity (like band, sports or cheerleading), or any class fees (like lab fees). Maybe that's where this is coming from now?
 
Could be a libertarian argument. Could be one of those "childfree" (as opposed to "childless") people, who hate the "breeders" and their brats.

Tell him he's paying now for his own damn education, which he received for free.

Whether he has kids or not is beside the point. He received an education paid for by taxpayers before him and now it's his turn to pay for it.
 
Last edited:
Travis said:
I was arguing with a high speed rail opponent (so a typical Monday night for me) when all of sudden he pulls out something I found rather appalling: he stated he was sick and tired of paying taxes for schools when he has no children. Then he went into a plan where schools would be done purely by user fees with the idea that the poor don't really need education anyways to do the basic jobs suited for them.

Seriously.

And this guy goes by the handle "Sobering Reality" too. :rolleyes:

Anyways this argument sounded a bit too much like it was lifted from some libertarian blog. Has anyone heard of a plan to do away with public education making the rounds lately?
Click to expand...


I heard it back in 1989. The libertarian version is slightly less cruel: the Invisible Hand of the Market will lead some enterprising entrepreneur to look at all the uneducated poor and marginally poor people and then run a school to give them at least a minimum education. The analogy given to me then by an actual libertarian is that it is a good idea for everyone to have shoes, but it is not the government's job to give shoes to everyone - similarly, it is not the government's job to give education to everyone.
 
I'm not sure how widespread this philosophy is among libertarians, but the idea that an educated populace isn't good for society as a whole is painfully stupid.
 
Sounds also like a sovereign citizen argument. Don't need to pay taxes for police, education, emergency services, etc, because 'I'm self sufficient'.
 
Travis said:
I was arguing with a high speed rail opponent (so a typical Monday night for me) when all of sudden he pulls out something I found rather appalling: he stated he was sick and tired of paying taxes for schools when he has no children. Then he went into a plan where schools would be done purely by user fees with the idea that the poor don't really need education anyways to do the basic jobs suited for them.

Seriously.

And this guy goes by the handle "Sobering Reality" too. :rolleyes:

Anyways this argument sounded a bit too much like it was lifted from some libertarian blog. Has anyone heard of a plan to do away with public education making the rounds lately?
Click to expand...
Public education, probably more than anything else, lifted the US up to join the elite nations of the world much more quickly than it would have otherwise done. (Thank you, Ben Franklin.) The decline of public education has been coincident with the US falling behind so many other countries in innovation and scientific skills. Your friend wants to hasten the decline. Sounds like he could use some sobering.
 
Tricky said:
The decline of public education has been coincident with the US falling behind so many other countries in innovation and scientific skills.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I buy this. Overall, perhaps, there has been a decline, but one can still receive a damn fine public education in the U.S. And I'm not sure I see that we've fallen behind in innovation.

ETA: I still fully support public education, funding it to beyond sufficient levels, and improving curriculum, especially in math and science. There are of course improvements to be made.
 
Last edited:
My husband's friend is neither Libertarian nor Sovereign Citizen. He's more of the "**** you, I've got mine" school of Conservatism.
 
So, we can hypothesize about Clayton Moore's user name on other forums - he's big on the home school, non-government run school thing.
 
Yeah, nothing will bring peace and prosperity to a nation like having a huge underclass of uneducated people with little or no hope for living decent lives! Just look at France, right before the Revolution. And Russia, right before the Revolution. And China, right before the Revolution. What could go wrong?
 
theprestige said:
So Travis found an idiot online, and Lisa Simpson knows another one personally. Now what?
Click to expand...

We introduce them, and breed them to start our underclass of idiots to man our mines and factories in the brave new Utopia!!!!


The idiots, I mean, not Lisa and Travis.
 
Ladewig said:
I heard it back in 1989. The libertarian version is slightly less cruel: the Invisible Hand of the Market will lead some enterprising entrepreneur to look at all the uneducated poor and marginally poor people and then run a school to give them at least a minimum education. The analogy given to me then by an actual libertarian is that it is a good idea for everyone to have shoes, but it is not the government's job to give shoes to everyone - similarly, it is not the government's job to give education to everyone.
Click to expand...

As long as they have sufficiently rigorous loan repayment practices it might work. Of course you can give up any idea of social mobility. I thought libertarians were in favor of social mobility.
 
Tricky said:
Public education, probably more than anything else, lifted the US up to join the elite nations of the world much more quickly than it would have otherwise done. (Thank you, Ben Franklin.) The decline of public education has been coincident with the US falling behind so many other countries in innovation and scientific skills. Your friend wants to hasten the decline. Sounds like he could use some sobering.
Click to expand...

He just has nothing wrong with that, as long as he is in the ruling elite of the third world nation the US becomes.
 
ponderingturtle said:
As long as they have sufficiently rigorous loan repayment practices it might work. Of course you can give up any idea of social mobility. I thought libertarians were in favor of social mobility.
Click to expand...

Sure, as the long as the social mobility doesn't impinge on their "**** you, I've got mine" fiscal conservatism.
 
Travis said:
I was arguing with a high speed rail opponent...
Click to expand...
I dunno, Travis. He doesn't sound too swift to me.

Travis said:
...he stated he was sick and tired of paying taxes for schools when he has no children.
Click to expand...
Do you know what he does (or used to do) for a living? Ask him if he has ever had a competent, educated, hard-working employee work for him. And if he has, ask him if he screened out any job applicants who had attended public school.

Because if he did hire such a person, he benefits from their public education. And if they were a generation or two younger than him, he even helped pay for it.

You can also ask him the same thing about the nurses and doctors in his hospital and his nursing home, and about a million other things he benefits from but is too cheap to willingly pay for.


Puppycow said:
Could be one of those "childfree" (as opposed to "childless") people, who hate the "breeders" and their brats.
Click to expand...
Hold on there, pardner. I am child-free, and I like the term. But I understand the great things that taxation makes possible and I strongly support public education. It is better to live among well-educated, well-informed people regardless of whether or not one bore any of them oneself.
 
GreyArea said:
I am child-free, and I like the term.
Click to expand...

I prefer "urchin-intolerant" myself. But even though I have no plans to surround myself with Crumb Crushers personally, this doesn't mean I don't see a benefit in living in an educated society. My school taxes are a trivial price to pay for this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom