• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Retire "Just a Theory"

CACTUSJACKmankin

Critical Thinker
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
279
Why won't this argument just go away? It reflects badly on the person who uses it. It just demonstrates that they are ignorant of science and the scientific use of the word theory. It only gets them brownie points among people who are ignorant of science. Even Answers in Genesis is getting on the bandwagon on this.
Colloquially a theory is at best an educated guess. In science this would roughly be equivalent a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation for a phenomenon. Sometimes hypotheses can accumulate enough evidence to become theories. Theories must be supported by facts.
Examples of theories are: evolution, big bang, gravity, heliocentrism (solar system), atomic theory of matter, and the germ theory of disease. All of these are rock solid principles of science with lots of evidence behind them.
WE NEED TO RETIRE THIS ARGUMENT!!!
 
Why won't this argument just go away? It reflects badly on the person who uses it. It just demonstrates that they are ignorant of science and the scientific use of the word theory. It only gets them brownie points among people who are ignorant of science. Even Answers in Genesis is getting on the bandwagon on this.
Colloquially a theory is at best an educated guess. In science this would roughly be equivalent a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation for a phenomenon. Sometimes hypotheses can accumulate enough evidence to become theories. Theories must be supported by facts.
Examples of theories are: evolution, big bang, gravity, heliocentrism (solar system), atomic theory of matter, and the germ theory of disease. All of these are rock solid principles of science with lots of evidence behind them.
WE NEED TO RETIRE THIS ARGUMENT!!!
I would use the word 'hypothesis' when I mean 'hypothesis'.

'theory' is a much stronger term than 'hypothesis'.

The following is a quick writing job, and I'll probably want to change some wording later, but it is close to how I think about things...

In terms of our confidence in a statement, the following ordering holds:

'hypothesis' < 'conjecture' < 'theorem' = 'theory' < 'law'

The following are not proper definitions, but are how I use these words:

An hypothesis is simply a statement - little or no expectation of the validity of the statement is being suggested.

A conjecture is a statement that is thought likely to be true, at least by its conjecturer, but that has not been proven to be true (e.g. Goldbach's Conjecture).

A theorem is a statement that has been proven by deriving it from a set of axioms by the appropriate application of a set of rules of inference. The theorem is true under every interpretation for which the axioms are true. The theorem is only as good as the axioms.

Fermat's Last Theorem was really a conjecture until a few years ago, but was called a 'theorem' out of respect for Fermat and his conjecturing skills. Once it was proven, it became a proper theorem.

A theory is a mathematical system that is defined by a set of axioms. I like to think of this as the 'shadow' cast by the set of axioms, and regard a theory as generating all of the consequences of the set of axioms, or as that set of consequences itself. The theory is only as good as the axioms.

I'll say that a theory (viewed as a set of consequences of the axioms) is true under every interpretation for which the axioms are true.

We talk about evolution being a theory. What we mean by this is that it is a coherent system of thought that we believe could, with a great deal of work and new understanding, be systematized, formalized, and axiomized. By calling evolution a theory, we express our expectation that the system is valid under some (realistic) interpretations and our expectation that formalization of the system will be achievable at some point in the future. Furthermore, we generally have enough evidence for evolution to regard many of its theorems as laws.

We tend to use the word 'law' in science, or in areas of mathematics which we expect to conform to or to approximate reality.

I'll say that a law is a theorem that is true under precisely those interpretations that conform to our understanding of reality.

That's my first cut in examining those words in the context of logic. :boxedin:
 
Last edited:
I disagree with your theory and law, Complexity (at least as I've seen them used in the sciences). As I learned it (and from what I can find), theory and law are two differnet things. A theory is an explanation for a phenomena that is supported by experiment and can be used to predict new pehnomena. For example, the theory of evolution explains why there's variation in species, and can also be used to predict certain things that might be expected for new species. The theory of relativity explains the causes of gravity (warped spacetime) and predicts several new phenomena (black holes).

A Law, on the other hand, is something supported by experiment that describes a phenomena but that does not offer an explanation. The Laws of thermodynamics describe entorpy/heat, but don't give an explanation as to why it's that way. Newton's Law of gravity gave us equations for gravitic force, but offered no explanation as to what gravity was. The various gas laws describe the way a gas behaves to changes in temperature and pressure, for example, but don't explain why these changes occur.

That's always been my understanding. In the physical sciences, it seems to go:

Conjecture (a guess or idea that seems right)->hypothesis (a formalized idea that offers an explanation for and/or description of phenomena)->theory (a hypothesis that's been tested and accepted that describes, expalins, and predicts phenomena) OR law (a hypothesis that's been tested and accepted that only describes phenomena)
 
To use terms a fundy can understand: In science, a theory is as close to the "Bible" as it gets. To say to a scientist, "It's only a theory" is comparable to saying to a fundy, "It's only the Bible."
 
What are you guys getting so worried about? It's just a Bible.
 
To use terms a fundy can understand: In science, a theory is as close to the "Bible" as it gets. To say to a scientist, "It's only a theory" is comparable to saying to a fundy, "It's only the Bible."
I would hesitate to use this. As it would likely lead to the fundy misrepresenting you as saying that the Bible has as much validity as the scientific theory in question.

-Greyman
 
I would hesitate to use this. As it would likely lead to the fundy misrepresenting you as saying that the Bible has as much validity as the scientific theory in question.

-Greyman

No! A fundy wouldn't MISREPRESENT anything, would he?

I am SO disillusioned.
 
I disagree with your theory and law, Complexity (at least as I've seen them used in the sciences). As I learned it (and from what I can find), theory and law are two differnet things. A theory is an explanation for a phenomena that is supported by experiment and can be used to predict new pehnomena. For example, the theory of evolution explains why there's variation in species, and can also be used to predict certain things that might be expected for new species. The theory of relativity explains the causes of gravity (warped spacetime) and predicts several new phenomena (black holes).

A Law, on the other hand, is something supported by experiment that describes a phenomena but that does not offer an explanation. The Laws of thermodynamics describe entorpy/heat, but don't give an explanation as to why it's that way. Newton's Law of gravity gave us equations for gravitic force, but offered no explanation as to what gravity was. The various gas laws describe the way a gas behaves to changes in temperature and pressure, for example, but don't explain why these changes occur.

That's always been my understanding. In the physical sciences, it seems to go:

Conjecture (a guess or idea that seems right)->hypothesis (a formalized idea that offers an explanation for and/or description of phenomena)->theory (a hypothesis that's been tested and accepted that describes, expalins, and predicts phenomena) OR law (a hypothesis that's been tested and accepted that only describes phenomena)
There's the rub. I was approaching this from the direction of logic and you are approaching it from the direction of science, and the terms are used differently.

I'm comfortable with how I use each term except for 'law' - that was my first attempt to figure out how that term might work in the context of mathematical logic.

I'm not comfortable with how you're using 'conjecture' and 'hypothesis' in the context of science, but I'm not sure if that discomfort is legitimate.

Must also think about your 'theory' and 'law'.

Must ponder and read...

Thanks!
 
There's the rub. I was approaching this from the direction of logic and you are approaching it from the direction of science, and the terms are used differently.

The problem, of course, is that approaching it from the direction of mathematical logic is the wrong directions, since all the controversial theories come from the empirical sciences.
 
There's the rub. I was approaching this from the direction of logic and you are approaching it from the direction of science, and the terms are used differently.

I'm comfortable with how I use each term except for 'law' - that was my first attempt to figure out how that term might work in the context of mathematical logic.

I'm not comfortable with how you're using 'conjecture' and 'hypothesis' in the context of science, but I'm not sure if that discomfort is legitimate.

Must also think about your 'theory' and 'law'.

Must ponder and read...

Thanks!

I'm not sure about conjecture myself; I don't think it's "officially" defined in science, so I defaulted to the layman's meaning :)
 
Why won't this argument just go away?

It's intentional and been debunked numerous times. It's just one of a series of fallacies the fundies trot out to convince those who don't know any better.

Also featured in this toolkit:

evolution says "all this" happened by random chance
the watchmaker argument
2nd law of thermodynamics disproves evolution
disproving evolution proves creationism
the Cambrian explosion
irreducible complexity

All of these have been thoroughly debunked yet all persist in creationist arguments, mostly because those who don't understand evolution, as well as those who want to believe in creationism, find them convincing.
 
It's intentional and been debunked numerous times. It's just one of a series of fallacies the fundies trot out to convince those who don't know any better.

Also featured in this toolkit:

evolution says "all this" happened by random chance
the watchmaker argument
2nd law of thermodynamics disproves evolution
disproving evolution proves creationism
the Cambrian explosion
irreducible complexity

All of these have been thoroughly debunked yet all persist in creationist arguments, mostly because those who don't understand evolution, as well as those who want to believe in creationism, find them convincing.


The creationists often trot out these tired old arguments even though they know they've been debunked. I saw this very thing happen before my eyes once at a lecture given by a creationist group - the lecturer brought out the whole 2nd Law of Thermo cr@p, and I corrected him on it in the middle of his lecture.

He then got nailed by another person who'd tracked his last set of 4 or 5 lectures when they stood up and told the audience that this lecturer had been corrected on that very point numerous times by physicists. Yet this clown still made the same damned arguments!

He was sooooo busted it wasn't even funny :p - but ironically, this public outing of his dishonesty HAD NO EFFECT on the people who were there supporting him! Talk about brainwashing :eek:

I can only think that the lecturer was simply being cynical and calculated. Something like "Yeah I know I'm wrong on this, I've been corrected numerous times, but I'm bringing people to The Lord and that's all that matters."

To some of those folks, it doesn't matter if they lie, because they think they're doing the work of God. And it's okay to lie if you've got God on your side, right?

Btw, all of those arguments can easily be addressed at Talk Origins in their FAQ section:

http://talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

Cheers - Mattus
 

Back
Top Bottom