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Repealing the 17th Amendment

shanek

Penultimate Amazing
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Aug 3, 2001
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Here's a good site about a movement to repeal the 17th Amendment to the Constitution, the reasons why, etc.:

http://www.articlev.com/repeal_the_17th_amendment.htm

These developments, and numerous others in the past, remind us that there are no checks and balances available to the states over federal power or over Congress itself in any area. However, in the history of our country, it was not always this way. In the original design by the Framers of the U.S. Constitution, there was an effective check on Congress through the state legislatures' power to appoint (and remove) United States Senators.

As such, the core of the problem with federal preemption lies in the passage of the 17th Amendment which abrogated the state legislatures' right to appoint United States Senators in favor of popular election of those officials. This amendment created a fundamental structural problem which, irrespective of the political party in office, or the laws in effect at any one time, will result, over time, in expanding federal control in every area. In addition to preemption issues, it caused a failure in the federalist structure, federal deficit spending, inappropriate federal mandates, and federal control over a number of state institutions.

The amendment also caused a fundamental breakdown in campaign finance issues with respect to United States Senators. As to United States Senators, campaign finance reform, which has been a hot topic in Congress, can be best achieved by repealing the 17th Amendment to the United States Constitution. It should be readily apparent that United States Senators, once appointed by the state legislature, would have no need for campaign financing whatsoever.

The reason for the passage of the 17th Amendment should be stated. The 17th Amendment was passed because of a procedural problem in the original concept and not because of a need to alter the balance of power. The procedural problem consisted of frequent deadlocks when the state legislatures were trying to select a senator. When deadlocked, a state would go without representation in the Senate. For instance, in the very first Congress, the State of New York went without representation in the Senate for three months. Additionally, numerous other problems resulted from the efforts to resolve individual deadlocks. The problem of deadlocked legislatures continued unabated from 1787 until 1913. The 17th amendment, calling for popular election of senators, fixed the procedural problems, but also inappropriately and unintentionally altered the balance of power. Instead, the 17th Amendment should have fixed the procedural problems and left the balance of power between the states and the federal government intact.

The 17th Amendment should be repealed. This would reinstate the states' linkage to the federal political process and would, thereby, have the effect of elevating the present status of the state legislatures from that of lobbyists, to that of a partner in the federal political process. The state legislatures would then have the ability to decentralize power when appropriate. It would give state legislatures direct influence over the selection of federal judges and the jurisdiction of the federal judiciary and much greater ability to modify the power of the federal judiciary. This structure would allow the flow of power between the states and the federal government to ebb and flow as the needs of our federal republic change. Figure A below portrays the existing relationship be_tween the states and the federal government. This relationship, combined with the effect of the Supremacy Clause, is guaranteed to concentrate power into the hands of the federal government with little hope of return.

And here's their proposed amendment:

An Amendment to Repeal the Seventeenth Amendment
and Re-link the States to the Federal Political Process.

Section One. The Seventeenth Article of Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

Section Two. The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, selected by the legislature of each State. Each Senator shall serve a six-year term and may be re-appointed. Each Senator shall have one vote.

Section Three. Among the duties of each Senator is the primary duty to represent the government of their State, and in particular, their State's Legislature, in the Senate. For the purpose of maintaining communications with its Senators, each State Legislature shall establish a liaison committee and shall specify the duties, procedures, and method of appointment of that committee. This committee shall work with its United States Senators in evaluating the impact of federal legislation on their State. All legislation proposed by Congress, and all treaties proposed, shall be submitted to each State's liaison committee.

Section Four. Senators are subject to removal by the State Legislature. Removal of a Senator requires a majority of each House of the State Legislature.

Section Five. Congress is precluded from enacting any legislation affecting the senatorial selection process. Each State Legislature shall enact rules and procedures, consistent with this amendment, related to the selection and removal of Senators. A State Legislature may implement a selection procedure whereby the State Legislature selects a Senator by a plurality vote rather than a majority. If a State Legislature fails to enact a selection procedure, then the State Legislature shall sit as a single body and shall select a Senator by a plurality vote. Irrespective of the procedures followed by the State Legislature, if the State Legislature does not choose a Senator within thirty days after a vacancy, the Governor of the State shall select the Senator.

Section Six. This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution. All state legislative proceedings, including, but not limited to, those concerning the liaison committee, procedural issues, and the selection and removal of a Senator are open to the public. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State Legislatures.

The 17th Amendment, as the site points out and as I have too several times on this forum, upset the balance of power and took away an important method of checks and balances. This would go a long way to reforming the system, although of course there are a lot of other problems that this wouldn't fix. Still, it would be a drastic improvement.
 
Reasons for changing/altering the 17th:

Senator Elizabeth Dole (carpet bagger)
Senator Hillary Clinton (carpet bagger)
Senator Strom Thurmond (RIP)
Senator Robert Byrd
Senator Edward Kennedy
Senator John Edwards (ambulance chaser elected because he has good hair)
Senator Norm Coleman (switched parties for it)
Senator Joe Biden (major league a-hole)
Senator Russ Feingold and John McCain (disguised and incumbent protection act as campaign finance reform)
Senator Frank "my election was downright illegal" Lautenberg
Senator John Sununu (name recognition)
 
If I've understood this corrrectly you want politicans to elect politicans?
 
What I'm really curious about is why did the senators of the past agree to pass the 17th amendment? I doubt it's a power grab, because I think it's much easier to get appointed by the state than it is by people.

Also shanek, besides campaign reform, what other balance and check are they suppose to do when elected by the state? I doubt they would stop pork barreling.

Gem
 
From shanek's link:

The reason for the passage of the 17th Amendment should be stated. The 17th Amendment was passed because of a procedural problem in the original concept and not because of a need to alter the balance of power. The procedural problem consisted of frequent deadlocks when the state legislatures were trying to select a senator. When deadlocked, a state would go without representation in the Senate. For instance, in the very first Congress, the State of New York went without representation in the Senate for three months. Additionally, numerous other problems resulted from the efforts to resolve individual deadlocks. The problem of deadlocked legislatures continued unabated from 1787 until 1913. The 17th amendment, calling for popular election of senators, fixed the procedural problems, but also inappropriately and unintentionally altered the balance of power. Instead, the 17th Amendment should have fixed the procedural problems and left the balance of power between the states and the federal government intact.

Well that answered part of my question. I wonder though why the Senate agreed to it.

Originally posted by geni
If I've understood this corrrectly you want politicans to elect politicans?

Good observation.
 
geni said:
If I've understood this corrrectly you want politicans to elect politicans?

I want state governments to have representation in the Federal government like they're supposed to. If this had been the case recently, you wouldn't have the Federal government saying things like, "Hey, you states, raise the drinking age to 21 or say bye-bye to your highway funds!"

It's checks and balances. Just as politicians in the Judicial branch have to guard against politicians in the Executive and Legislative branch (not that that's happening much lately), politicians in the state government have to guard against politicians in the Federal government.
 
Gem said:
Also shanek, besides campaign reform, what other balance and check are they suppose to do when elected by the state? I doubt they would stop pork barreling.

As I said, it won't solve everything. But check my previous post for an example.
 
Gem said:
Well that answered part of my question. I wonder though why the Senate agreed to it.

For the same reason the state legislatures agreed to it. They were as frustrated with the current system as anyone. The nice thing about the proposed anemndment is that it restores the balance of power while fixing the problems that led to the 17th Amendment in the first place.
 
shanek said:


I want state governments to have representation in the Federal government like they're supposed to. If this had been the case recently, you wouldn't have the Federal government saying things like, "Hey, you states, raise the drinking age to 21 or say bye-bye to your highway funds!"

It's checks and balances. Just as politicians in the Judicial branch have to guard against politicians in the Executive and Legislative branch (not that that's happening much lately), politicians in the state government have to guard against politicians in the Federal government.

I will happerly admit to know little about US politics. But what makes you think that repealing this amendmnent will make any difference to the above issues? You risk end up with a senet whoes only talents are being nice to politicians.


Eddied to add: I also suupect you may risk ending up with someone like Jeffery Archer.
 
geni said:
I will happerly admit to know little about US politics. But what makes you think that repealing this amendmnent will make any difference to the above issues?

Because the state governments don't take too kindly to being extorted. But as it is, they have no recourse.

You risk end up with a senet whoes only talents are being nice to politicians.

And what we have now is any different?

Eddied to add: I also suupect you may risk ending up with someone like Jeffery Archer.

You're going to have to explain to me who that is, or provide a link or something.
 
shanek said:
Because the state governments don't take too kindly to being extorted. But as it is, they have no recourse.
[/b]

Do indivdual senitors have a veto power? If not what difference is one or two anoyed senitors going to make

And what we have now is any different?

Some of them appear to be good at being nice to voters

You're going to have to explain to me who that is, or provide a link or something.

The closest thing we have to this in the UK are various party apointees to the house of lords. These are apionted for life by the various parties. A lot of them are considered to be party stooges (fortunetly due to the shear size of the house the effect they have is limited). Jeffery archer is considered to be a perticaly fine example of the flaws in this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1424501.stm
 
shanek said:
Here's a good site about a movement to repeal the 17th Amendment to the Constitution, the reasons why, etc.
Why stop there?

Let's abolish the US Senate altogether.

As I understand it, the old idea of placing the choice of US Senators in the control of state leaders was designed to ensure that these senators would be chosen by folks who had met their state's highest standards. Namely an ability to pass property-holding and religious qualifications.
 
geni said:

The closest thing we have to this in the UK are various party apointees to the house of lords.
From what I understand they are in no way equivalent to a US Senator in terms of real power.

Don't the British vest all legislative power in the House of Commons?
 
shanek

Wouldn't abolishing the US Senate outright alleviate certain problems with the Electoral College? Making the possibility of a third party candidate slightly more doable?
 
corplinx said:
Reasons for changing/altering the 17th:


Senator Strom Thurmond (RIP)
Senator Robert Byrd

These are exactly the sort of senators we would have if the legislature chose the senators. At least as long as the senority system is in place. Byrd is the biggest meal ticket in the mountain state, and we will keep sending him back even after he dies if we can.

Legislatures will be even more sensitive to the practical reality that sending the same guy back will help the state.

I'm all for ditching the 17th for the reasons shanek cites. The 17th is an example of poorly thought out populism that wreaked havoc on the vertical seperation of powers. But thinking that the quality of senators will go up is a bit far-fetched. We will have carreer hacks and assorted connected geeks. However, these hacks and geeks will do the bidding of the state hacks and geeks rather than the same idiots the house has to suck up to, as the senators won't have to worry so much about dough for the re-election campaign. This is the kind of diversity that can't but help.
 
geni said:
Do indivdual senitors have a veto power? If not what difference is one or two anoyed senitors going to make

All of the Senators would be elected by their state legislators.

Some of them appear to be good at being nice to voters

If by "being nice to voters" you mean "bullsh!77ing them and pulling the wool over their eyes," then I agree.
 
Frank Newgent said:
Wouldn't abolishing the US Senate outright alleviate certain problems with the Electoral College? Making the possibility of a third party candidate slightly more doable?

I don't see how. Perhaps you could explain your thinking?

I think the Electoral College is ripe for a system of proportional representation. But that's another topic for another thread...
 
shanek said:


I don't see how. Perhaps you could explain your thinking?

I think the Electoral College is ripe for a system of proportional representation. But that's another topic for another thread...
Didn't intend to hijack. Just found the idea interesting.

I suppose that with no US Senate the Electoral College would have to go to. What use would it have?

So much for the 270 vote ceiling. National elections would be decided on something other than a strictly state level.

Third party candidates might be perceived as having a realistic shot were the process strictly democratic.

Here's an irony considering the subject of this thread.

The Bull Moose party platform - "New Nationalism" - included direct election of U.S. Senators, the creation of an initiative, referendum, and recall process, woman suffrage, a national tariff reduction, child labor laws, old-age pensions, and other social reforms. Roosevelt's agenda had broad support. Despite splitting the Republican vote with Taft, and therefore losing the general election to the Democratic nominee, Woodrow Wilson, T.R. received 88 electoral votes and more than four million popular votes. He soundly defeated Taft; if Taft had not run, and those who had voted for Taft then voted for T.R., Wilson probably would have lost. No third party candidate has since come close to T.R.'s success. A final indication of Roosevelt's appeal and influence is that most of his agenda became law, in several cases through a strenuous constitutional amendment process.
 
Frank Newgent said:
I suppose that with no US Senate the Electoral College would have to go to. What use would it have?

The purpose of the Electoral College doesn't have anything to do really with the Senate. It's a balancing act between having equal representation among the states in a Presidential election and the popular opinion of the people. With the former, you get people whose vote is worth a lot more than others; with the latter, you get the entire election chosen by a very few locations. The Electoral College is a not-so-happy-but-adequate medium. The only real problem with it is the winner-take-all method in which the states select their electors. That leads to things like the Florida fiasco.

So much for the 270 vote ceiling.

It's not a ceiling, it's a majority. And it would just be lowered, is all, since you now have an overall lower number of electors.
 

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