Religious Book Exchange

[rcronk]

This thread started over here. A few people from JREF have decided to read religious books in search of truth using the methods described by those books instead of the scientific method. I have done this with two of these books and have actually gained knowledge through using this method. The method I used comes from the following religious verses:

New Testament - 1 James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

The Book of Mormon - Moroni 10:3-5 - "Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

The purpose here is to honestly and sincerely experiment with a new way of gathering information, not to bash religions or books. If there is some truth to find in these books, lets focus on that truth and finding out if that truth can be verified through the above instructions. This thread will serve as a place for people to discuss their experiences, questions, and results of their experiments.

Pick a religious book and follow the above instructions and report your findings here. Report what truth you have found rather than things you disagree with. I want this thread to be focused on the positives we experience, not be a bashing bigot-fest.

I have read the New Testament and Book of Mormon and through the above instructions have found both of them to be true and what they say they are notwithstanding the errors of man that have crept in over the years.

I am now going to read the Dhammapada - a Buddhist text. Ryokan has offered to help me answer any questions I might have in understanding the text. He has agreed to read the Book of Mormon and I have agreed to help him with any questions he might have.

If you want to participate in this experiment, please post the book you will be reading and report back the truth you find there.

Again - we are trying to find truth in these books and validate that truth using the instructions above. Keep it positive. Thanks.

 

[rcronk]

I'm starting with "Yammakavagga - The Pairs (verses 1-20)".

I have a question about the second pair of statements: "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased. He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased." I have experienced letting go of hatred and how when I choose to let it go (forgive), peace returns to me. If I choose not to let it go, it is never satisfied. Is this the meaning of these statements?

And "The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby." - This should be an Internet forum rule. Good stuff.

"him verily Mara overthrows" - what/who is Mara?

Are the "yellow robes" the robes of the monk? What's the significance of the color yellow? The warrior monks from the shaolin temple that I trained with wore yellow robes. They were extremely kind and gentle martial artists.

"The one, who takes wrong to be right and right to be wrong, and who thinks always of sensual pleasures, cannot be successful in finding the Truth." - I have lived this one and know it to be true.

"Here he grieves, hereafter he grieves. In both states the evildoer grieves. He grieves, he afflicted, perceiving the impurity of his own deeds. Here he rejoices, hereafter he rejoices. In both states the welldoer rejoices. He rejoices, exceedingly rejoices, perceiving the purity of his own deeds." - I have also lived these and know them to be true. This knowledge of truth didn't come from a book but from my own experience.

"Though much he recites the Sacred Texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who counts others' kine. He has no share in the fruits of the Holy life." - I have lived this and know it to be true. This concept is also scattered throughout the other religious texts I have read.

I have also agreed to live the four noble truths and the eightfold path to gain truth through experience as well as prayer as stated above in the instructions. I have found that living the truth I find is an essential part of validating that truth.

I have found the four noble truths to be true through living them. In Biblical and Mormon points of view, they are explained as taking up one's cross, denying one's self of non-eternal things and finding out that we can exist and have a more lasting joy without them. I have found this to be completely true in my life.

The reincarnation idea - if I understand correctly, one will continue to be reborn until they stop being addicted to the non-eternal things of this world - is one that doesn't quite reconcile with the knowledge I have found up to this point. My brother-in-law is Vaishnava and believes in reincarnation and so I have thought about this a lot. Biblical and Mormon belief is that we did have a life before this one where we lived with God, and that we'll have a life after this one and so I wonder if these multiple lives have anything to do with the idea of reincarnation. The difficulty I have with reincarnation is that one of the eternal things I have found I can hold to is a family and that the nature and organization of that family is eternal. Reincarnation would seem to confuse that issue a bit. What is the point of view of Buddhists on these things?

 

[Ryokan]

Woah, rcronk, I'm actually quite surprised you accepted this challenge, and hope I can live up to it. As I said in the other thread I found the Book of Mormon a difficult read, not only because I found most parts boring, but also because English isn't my first language, and the English in the Book of Mormon is quite archaic.

It's now been 12 years since I read it, though, so maybe it'll be an easier read now. I quite like the concept of the book, though. Maybe there should be a movie

I'm starting with "Yammakavagga - The Pairs (verses 1-20)".

I have a question about the second pair of statements: "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased. He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased." I have experienced letting go of hatred and how when I choose to let it go (forgive), peace returns to me. If I choose not to let it go, it is never satisfied. Is this the meaning of these statements?

Yes, that's the essence of the Four Noble Truths. Well, maybe not neccesarily the forgivness part, but clinging to the experience. Let it go.

A very good page that explains the Four Noble Truths very simply is http://4truths.com/ - It's a good start for a study of the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path.

And "The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby." - This should be an Internet forum rule. Good stuff.

"him verily Mara overthrows" - what/who is Mara?

Mara is the goddess of death in Hindu mythology. In Buddhism, she represents temptation.

Are the "yellow robes" the robes of the monk? What's the significance of the color yellow? The warrior monks from the shaolin temple that I trained with wore yellow robes. They were extremely kind and gentle martial artists.

Yellow robes in this case signifies Buddhist monks, yes. But the color may vary from Buddhist culture to culture, and denomination to denomination. I have no idea what the significance if the color is - probably nothing.

"The one, who takes wrong to be right and right to be wrong, and who thinks always of sensual pleasures, cannot be successful in finding the Truth." - I have lived this one and know it to be true.

Well, that's the subject at the very heart of our discussion, isn't it? I'd say you take wrong to be right, by denying the facts of evolution.

And while we probably agree that always thinking of sensual pleasures is a bad thing, we probably wouldn't agree that it doesn't hurt to think of sensual pleasures now and then, especially if we're not married

"Though much he recites the Sacred Texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who counts others' kine. He has no share in the fruits of the Holy life." - I have lived this and know it to be true. This concept is also scattered throughout the other religious texts I have read.

Of course, there are a lot of common themes in most religions.

I have also agreed to live the four noble truths and the eightfold path to gain truth through experience as well as prayer as stated above in the instructions. I have found that living the truth I find is an essential part of validating that truth.

Good luck

I have found the four noble truths to be true through living them. In Biblical and Mormon points of view, they are explained as taking up one's cross, denying one's self of non-eternal things and finding out that we can exist and have a more lasting joy without them. I have found this to be completely true in my life.

Well, the Four Noble Truths is not about 'denying one's self of non-eternal things', it's about realizing that they are non-eternal, or impermanent. As long as you fully and completely understand that, you can enjoy them to your heart's content - maybe even enjoy them much more than you otherwise would.

The reincarnation idea - if I understand correctly, one will continue to be reborn until they stop being addicted to the non-eternal things of this world - is one that doesn't quite reconcile with the knowledge I have found up to this point. My brother-in-law is Vaishnava and believes in reincarnation and so I have thought about this a lot. Biblical and Mormon belief is that we did have a life before this one where we lived with God, and that we'll have a life after this one and so I wonder if these multiple lives have anything to do with the idea of reincarnation. The difficulty I have with reincarnation is that one of the eternal things I have found I can hold to is a family and that the nature and organization of that family is eternal. Reincarnation would seem to confuse that issue a bit. What is the point of view of Buddhists on these things?

Ah, reincarnation. Some denominations believe in it, others don't. Some prefer to call it rebirth.

The Pali Canon, the mass of books central to Theravada Buddhism, and the oldest known Buddhist scriptures, contradict themselves when it comes to reincarnation. Why this is so is a pretty long discussion, in which the central theme is what did the Buddha actually teach, and what was made up after his death? Unless someone invents a time machine, we'll probably never know for sure.

But one thing is for certain - one of the core teachings of Theravada, the oldest Buddhist denomination, is that nothing is permanent. Without this, the Four Noble Truths don't work. Gautama Buddha also denied the existance of a permanent soul, that there is nothing of the self beyond the five skandhas - matter, sensation, perception, thoughts and consciousness. I happen to agree with him, and I think so would most atheists.

As Gautama Buddha says to Kutadanta, a very religious Bhraman, in the Kutadanta Sutta:

"You believe, O Master, that beings are reborn; that they migrate in the evolution of life; and that subject to the law of karma we must reap what we sow. Yet you teach the non-existence of the soul! Your disciples praise utter self-extinction as the highest bliss of Nirvana. If I am merely a combination of the skandhas, my existence will cease when I die. If I am merely a compound of sensations and ideas and desires, where will I go at the dissolution of the body?"

Said the Blessed One: "O Brahman, you are religious and earnest. You are seriously concerned about your soul. Yet your work is in vain because you are lacking in the one thing that is needful."

"There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Your thought-forms reappear, but there is no egoentity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the word."

 

[rcronk]

Ryokan - thanks for the clarifications. I have printed the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path and have them on my cubicle wall and will read them each day. You can get the Book of Mormon for free in just about any language you want - including Norwegian. I have read it in English many times and Spanish a few times. I highly recommend getting it in your most native tongue - I had a much better connection with the concepts when I read it in my native tongue. It was good to read it in Spanish (a few times), Portuguese (parts), and Italian (parts) too but really just as a differing viewpoint from a language perspective.

By the way, you write English very well.

I've always thought that if I derive joy from a non-eternal thing, then when that thing is not there, it would diminish my joy. Therefore I should only derive joy from eternal things rather than enjoying non-eternal things - you know what I'm saying? This goes also for thinking of sensual pleasures when not married - in my experience, that only brings eventual depression and wreckage and it encourages the objectification of women in my own mind, which I have also found to be very detrimental to my lasting joy.

So the Dhammapada is a collection of quotes from Gautama Buddha? Is that correct? If so, why was he different from anyone else? Was he just able to become detached better than anyone up to that point or what?

So, if there is no permanent soul, it's the character or thought-forms that are transferred between births? Are these things the essence of our beings? Are these things eternal or just relatively persistent? When do they end? I'm trying to learn, not argue, just so you know. Do you believe in reincarnation?

 

[Ryokan]

Ryokan - thanks for the clarifications. I have printed the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path and have them on my cubicle wall and will read them each day. You can get the Book of Mormon for free in just about any language you want - including Norwegian. I have read it in English many times and Spanish a few times. I highly recommend getting it in your most native tongue - I had a much better connection with the concepts when I read it in my native tongue. It was good to read it in Spanish (a few times), Portuguese (parts), and Italian (parts) too but really just as a differing viewpoint from a language perspective.

You're taking this much more serious than I expected. To be honest, I expected you refuse the challenge - that's how it usually goes around here. I'm glad you didn't live up to my expectations

I do have it in Norwegian as well, but I prefer reading it in the original language. I read quite a lot of books in English, and my English has improved vastly since I last read the Book of Mormon, so it might be better this time.

By the way, you write English very well.

Thank you, so do you

I've always thought that if I derive joy from a non-eternal thing, then when that thing is not there, it would diminish my joy. Therefore I should only derive joy from eternal things rather than enjoying non-eternal things - you know what I'm saying? This goes also for thinking of sensual pleasures when not married - in my experience, that only brings eventual depression and wreckage and it encourages the objectification of women in my own mind, which I have also found to be very detrimental to my lasting joy.

The difference between us, obviously, is that I don't believe anything is permanent. Nothing.

It's also an important concept if you are to fully and completely understand the Four Noble Truths. Once you realize that nothing is permanent, that all things must come to an end, you can let go of your clinging/attachment.

Did you go to 4truths.com? It's a very short introduction.

So the Dhammapada is a collection of quotes from Gautama Buddha? Is that correct? If so, why was he different from anyone else? Was he just able to become detached better than anyone up to that point or what?

The Pali Canon was written down around 2000 years ago, after being an oral tradition for around 400 years. They are alleged to be the teachings of Siddharta Gautama, also known as Gautama Buddha.

The Dhammapada can be best explained as a sort of 'Best of Buddha'.

If you want the history of Gautama, I suggest you read Wikipeda's article on him here. Siddharta Gautama was in a very special situation, where he first experienced extreme luxury, and then extreme ascetism. With this foundation, he founded his philosophy, that of the Middle Way..

If there is no permanent soul, but character or thought-forms are transferred? Are these things the essence of our beings? Are these things eternal or just relatively persistent? When do they end? I'm trying to learn, not argue, just so you know.

There is no permanent soul. Character and thought-form - this is karma. Our actions and deeds have ripple-effects into society and into the future. Do good things, and you improve the world; and vice versa for bad things.

As one guy explained it so well: One generation neglects to improve the levees, and the current generation suffered for it.

The essence of our beings are the five skandhas - all of them materialistic. They are not eternal, and end when you die.

Oh, I don't experience you as arguing at all. I don't mind answering questions, but do realize that I'm just a layman, and might not be able to answer or explain everything.

Sometimes I will have to answer 'I don't know' instead of making up supernatural explanations for which there is no evidence

 

[rcronk]

lol - I'm a man of my word, so I do what I say - that really just makes me more careful about what I say.

I like to look through the eyes of many people and religions to see their view on the truth. I have found much more truth this way than I have through one viewpoint.

I just now went to 4truths.com - thanks. Before, I had gone to http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html and http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html to get the descriptions.

I would rather hear "I don't know" - that helps me to trust that you're telling the truth rather than making things up.

So - you don't believe in reincarnation, but that the effects of your actions ripple out and that artifact is all that is left of you when you die?

I'll go read the wikipedia article. Thanks.

P.S. I have gone here: http://www.shaolin.cn.com/site/ to chat with Shaolin monks online in the past. That's the Shaolin Temple's official website and it has a forum. Cool stuff.

 

[Ryokan]

Shaolin is important to the history of Buddhism. It's where Zen began.

And I love Chinese/Hong Kong Kung Fu movies

Oh, and be aware that, as I said earlier, I'm going to Turkey tomorrow, and won't be back for at least a week, so I won't be around for that time.

 

[rcronk]

ok - have a nice trip and be careful - talk to you when you get back. I'll continue reading but will not post much. Later!

 

[cyborg]

but that the effects of your actions ripple out and that artifact is all that is left of you when you die?

It is all the consists of you whilst you live; let alone once you die.

 

[rcronk]

cyborg! Are you Buddhist too? If so or if not, share with me your beliefs of reincarnation, karma, etc. Thanks.

 

[cyborg]

If so or if not, share with me your beliefs of reincarnation, karma, etc. Thanks.

The closest anyone is going to get to being reincarnated is having a some subset of the atoms that at some point formed constructs of their body re-utilised by other organisms.

Karma as a concept of universal justice is ultimately flawed and does not reflect the true nature of the reasons why people behave the way they do.

 

[rcronk]

Thanks for sharing. Did you want to pick a book to read? I suggest the Book of Mormon but you can pick anything you want.

 

[cyborg]

Thanks for sharing. Did you want to pick a book to read?

Are you going to hang around? Otherwise I'm just going to read Douglas Adams.

I suggest the Book of Mormon but you can pick anything you want.

What I have read I thought was funny. Seriously - it actually puzzles me how anyone could take such bad stories as some great insight from a divine being. If I was going to be religious about it I would probably say I'm making god in my own image or something and then complain that if an omniscient god existed he'd really have some better literary skills.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Would the Bhagavad-gita work? I've started looking through the one I was sold when I was walking to the cafeteria one afternoon.

 

[rcronk]

cyborg - you decide if you want to read a religious book and follow the experiment or not and let us know which book you've chosen.

Silly Green Monkey - Sure, I have the Bhagavad-gita (my brother-in-law is vaishnava) and have read some of it and I think there are some good truths in there.

 

[Tanstaafl]

It's now been 12 years since I read it, though, so maybe it'll be an easier read now. I quite like the concept of the book, though. Maybe there should be a movie.

Actually, they did make it a movie. I saw it; it was dreadful. And it was only the first part, it ended not long after they made it to America.

On the other hand, there have been a series of other movies made by and about Mormons that I found to be excellent, and quite educational. In particular, Army of God (I think that was the title) and Singles Ward were very good, and are both an excellent aid in coming to understand (at least partially) Mormons.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

Woah, rcronk, I'm actually quite surprised you accepted this challenge, and hope I can live up to it. As I said in the other thread I found the Book of Mormon a difficult read, not only because I found most parts boring, but also because English isn't my first language, and the English in the Book of Mormon is quite archaic.

Don't be too discouraged. Mark Twain said this regarding "The Book of Mormon": "It is chloroform in print"

Charlie (I still giggle when I read that) Monoxide

 

[rcronk]

Tanstaafl and Charlie - which religious books will you each be reading?

 

[Tanstaafl]

Do you have a suggestion? I've already read the Book of Mormon and the Qu'ran.

ETA: And the Bible also.

 

[rcronk]

How about "The Doctrine and Covenants"?