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Religion vs. Spirituality

Gr8wight

red-shirted crewman
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
1,661
Hi all,
I am trying to write an essay on belief from the point of view of an atheist. I have been asked the question:
Can you have spirituality/faith/belief without it's counterpart, religion or God?{ Does an atheist still participate in spirituality/belief/faith without the God or religion?}
I am having difficulty with this question because I don't see any semantic difference between the terms faith/belief/spirituality and religion/God. I have posted several topics on the Unexplained Mysteries forum, but the average age of users over there seems to be about 14, and I am not getting any useful information or opinion. So I will ask here.

Can you give me examples of things you believe fall into the category of spirituality/faith/belief without being a part of religion/God? What are your thoughts on the matter?
 
Gr8wight said:
... but the average age of users over there seems to be about 14, and I am not getting any useful information or opinion. So I will ask here....
Ashley Simpson is very spiritual. Ergo, extreme fajita.

;)
 
Re: Re: Religion vs. Spirituality

hgc said:
Ashley Simpson is very spiritual. Ergo, extreme fajita.

;)


It's spelled Ashlee, helloooooo!
 
This question probably stems from people who say "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" which doesn't mean anything.

You ought to go with your initial impression.
 
Gr8wight said:
Can you give me examples of things you believe fall into the category of spirituality/faith/belief without being a part of religion/God? What are your thoughts on the matter?
You dont need to exclude all religions, because some religions can be atheistic, such as various flavors of Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, and several other eastern belief systems. The most mainstream form of spirituality without God in the west is in the Unitarian Universalists.

There are also some deliberately atheist religions, such as Satanism that deny the existence of God, and even more strange alien-cults like Heavens Gate and Raelians.

You can also believe in reincarnation, karma, ghosts, psychics, channeling, crystal power, chakra, and various wooisms without ever conceding to a god of any kind.

Less mainstream are people who believe they are "otherkin" (belief that they have non-human souls), and some of the "vampire freaks" websites that exist. These beliefs function as a kind of spirtuality and faith, but they dont have to have anything to do with God, and some flatly reject God.
 
Gr8wight said:
*snip* but the average age of users over there seems to be about 14, and I am not getting any useful information or opinion. *snip*
This usually translates into: "None of the bastards will agree with my great ideas." ;)

Obviously, spirituality does not equal theism. Thus, you ca nbe an atheist and still cater to spirituality. I know someone who does not believe in any god or gods, but is a shaman and thinks all things have spirits.

There is also another kind of spirituality: Concepts of honor, ethics, loyalty, etc. can be said to be spiritual things, but do in no way imply any kind of religion in themselves (although they also play an important role in religions).

Hans
 
Re: Re: Religion vs. Spirituality

MRC_Hans said:
This usually translates into: "None of the bastards will agree with my great ideas." ;)

Actually, in this case is translates into none of them really know what they believe yet.

Obviously, spirituality does not equal theism. Thus, you can be an atheist and still cater to spirituality. I know someone who does not believe in any god or gods, but is a shaman and thinks all things have spirits.

If you want to define atheism that rigidly, I guess. I wouldn't consider him an atheist.

There is also another kind of spirituality: Concepts of honor, ethics, loyalty, etc. can be said to be spiritual things, but do in no way imply any kind of religion in themselves (although they also play an important role in religions).

Hans

No.
 
Re: Re: Re: Religion vs. Spirituality

Gr8wight said:
Actually, in this case is translates into none of them really know what they believe yet.

OK ;). Although in my experience that is not necessarily a sign of young age.


If you want to define atheism that rigidly, I guess. I wouldn't consider him an atheist.

Well, that's what the word really means. But I agree that it is usually taken to be synonymous with "materialist". Under that definition, however, it will not encompass Buddists.

No.

A question of definitions again.


Hans
 
Re: Re: Re: Religion vs. Spirituality

Gr8wight said:

If you want to define atheism that rigidly, I guess. I wouldn't consider him an atheist.

If you look up atheism you'll find the way he defines it is just fine.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion vs. Spirituality

ma1ic3 said:
If you look up atheism you'll find the way he defines it is just fine.

Yeah, I've looked up the dictionary definition of all the words I used. Now I want to move beyond pedantry into the actual common usage of the words. Do you have any suggestions in regard to my original question?
 
Gr8wight said:
Can you give me examples of things you believe fall into the category of spirituality/faith/belief without being a part of religion/God? What are your thoughts on the matter?

Breathing, eating with someone you know, listening to music. Spirituality is a perspective about things, if the experience of anything is important to you, and you can see it from that perspective, then it is spiritual.

The most mundane thing can be completly trivial or trascendental, if one wishes.
 
Iacchus said:
Spirituality is the basis of religion, not the other way around.

Thank you. That's the most useful thing anyone has said to me on this topic all week. It's so obvious that I was missing it all along.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion vs. Spirituality

Gr8wight said:
Yeah, I've looked up the dictionary definition of all the words I used. Now I want to move beyond pedantry into the actual common usage of the words.

Im pretty sure the dictionary definition is the common usage. Until now, I haven't heard of anyone considering someone who doesn't believe in a god to not be an atheist.

Gr8wight said:
Do you have any suggestions in regard to my original question?

The difference I see between faith, religion and belief is that faith is a type of believing and religion is a type of belief, but belief isn't a type of religion and believing isn't a type of faith.

The word spirituality, or spiritual, is like the word religious, it is just a label that is given to people that believe in spiritual/religious things or to objects that have to do with those things.

God is just one among many other things that is spiritual, religious and requires faith. Some things are just considered to be spiritual, like running naked in a forest. I can't think of anything that is considered to be religious but not spiritual as well. And all spiritual and religious things that I know of require faith to believe in.

Of course many people will disagree, a Christian will believe that prayer is spiritual but not, say, a crystal. And some Christians think that it's so obvious that there is a god, or more specifically, that their God exists, that they don't believe there religion requires any faith at all.
 
"a lot of women tell me, 'i'm not religious, i'm spiritual.' so, i tell them, 'i'm not honest, but you're interesting.' "
 
Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh:6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
I think for a good answer you need to know what's meant by "spirituality".

To me it's a pretty loose and fairly usless word.
 
People seem to think that being an atheist means becoming a literalist. Someone who looks at the Mona Lisa and insists it is only a few bucks worth of paint and material.

It is ok for an atheist to speak of having a heart, or enjoying soulful music, or working from a hunch, or taking a leap of faith. So why surrender 'spiritual'? Words are just labels and of limited usefulness anyway. Why make communication harder than it already is?

Certainly the word carries meaning about how we sometimes feel inside, even though we do not attach supernatural or superstitious meaning to it.

If there are no gods, the meaning of 'spiritual' is something we all create from within.












Do not criticize moral and social traditions.
Do not lead a life of personal desire.
Think little of yourself.
Think much of others.
Do not desire much in your life.
Do not regret much in regard to yourself.
Do not envy others their success.
Do not regret parting.
Do not harbor resentment against others.
Do not love too deeply.
Do not hate.
Do not build houses that are too beautiful or too big.
Do not eat too much, or too rich foods.
Do not posses many changes of clothing; Do not wear fine garments or jewels.
Do not be superstitious.
Do not spend money on anything other than your sword.
Do not fear death in the service of your master or in order to help another.
Do not posses too much money.
Respect the Buddha and the gods but do not pray to them or depend on them.
Uphold honor without fearing death.
Never forget the way of the Samurai.

Miyamoto Musashi
 
Can you have spirituality/faith/belief without it's counterpart, religion or God? Does an atheist still participate in spirituality/belief/faith without the God or religion?
I don't see how the atheist can answer no. If the atheist is correct then God, faith, and that spiritual feeling that other claim to experience is only a feeling - can only be a feeling that others claim to experience. God is the name they give to a feeling. It's a brain state - a state of mind - for the atheist it can be nothing more.

If it's a feeling that children and adults have had down through time and across cultures it's probably relatively accessible. Different from asking a man if he's ever had menstrual cramps - that's more inaccessible - they can have similar body discomfort and pain - they can call it cramps. Even if we're constructed differently, cramps and headaches and spiritual feelings are all personal and interior. Who can ever deny someone's feelings.

Spiritual feelings are warm, inclusive, wonderful, life affirming experiences of oneness. They can be feelings of awe, mystery, or childlike innocence. They can even be feelings about emptiness, desolation, death and the abyss.

If you achieve an elevated feeling walking into a forest with cathedral lighting from the sun and the next person gets an elevated feeling walking into a cathedral who can say one is spiritual and one is not.

If a Christian and an atheist sit around the campfire and stare at the night sky and both feel awe and wonder and their own insignificance against the vastness, does the Christian experience it as spiritual because somewhere he's added an extra ingredient - God?

If you are with your kid and you see a deer in the woods and he stops and his eyes get big and you are captured by his wonder at the world around him can you not name it as spiritual.

And what of the peace and calm that comes being held in the arms of the one you love. Do the arms have to be Jesus' to call it spiritual?

Spiritual is a feeling. Ain't no way to tell what faith feels like unless you've felt it. If you have felt it and lost it and feel it anew on a morning walk in golden spring sunshine are you really going to accept some fundamentalist telling you - nope, you never had it - it's not the same thing - you obviously didn't do it right.

We're all human and all have pretty much the same feelings. I don't know exactly what it feels like to jump out of a plane with a parachute but I've stood on the edge of the mountain with the wind blowing me back. It's in a small way similar. A tinier thrill, but sufficiently distanced from the mundane to be felt as spiritual.
 

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