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Religion and Romantic Love

seayakin

Graduate Poster
seayakin
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
1,437
I have been in the dating game again and one thing I have noticed that I haven't in the past is that at least anecdotally, those women who are religious have concepts of romantic love.

Do others think religion and concepts of romantic love go together?

I also see commercials for "Christian Mingle" and see mottos like "God's choice for you" blah, blah (and throwup).

My last partner, was an atheist and humanist and certainly didn't have romantic ideals. This is not to say that she didn't like romance, but she didn't have ideals of love at first sight etc. However, some of the women I have gone out with seem to have those kind of expectations (not all but those who clearly define themselves as religious and none are fundamentalist because I would have not gone out with them, they are more like cafeteria Christians, picking and choosing what they want to believe in).

I have been thinking about this a while, but I don't have any good data but do religious people tend to be idealistic? It seems to me that they are and have to be to hold to their religion.
 
seayakin said:
I have been thinking about this a while, but I don't have any good data but do religious people tend to be idealistic?
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Religious people are people. They include naive people, and every other kind of person. The religious people who use sites like Christian Mingle may be more naive than others, but it may also be that their religion is a deal breaker for them, so they rule out every non-Christian automatically when looking for a mate.

Also, I find what you lump together under the dismissive idea of "romantic ideals" to be rather telling. What you're describing as "romantic ideals" is what Heather Dale describes as puppy love. Such views are certainly not limited to theists; I've known a number of atheists that have had that sort of view as well, and a huge number of theists that had a much more mature view of romance and love (back home parents didn't generally shield their kids from the fact that Mommy and Daddy don't always agree).
 
seayakin said:
I have been in the dating game again and one thing I have noticed that I haven't in the past is that at least anecdotally, those women who are religious have concepts of romantic love.

Do others think religion and concepts of romantic love go together?

I also see commercials for "Christian Mingle" and see mottos like "God's choice for you" blah, blah (and throwup).

My last partner, was an atheist and humanist and certainly didn't have romantic ideals. This is not to say that she didn't like romance, but she didn't have ideals of love at first sight etc. However, some of the women I have gone out with seem to have those kind of expectations (not all but those who clearly define themselves as religious and none are fundamentalist because I would have not gone out with them, they are more like cafeteria Christians, picking and choosing what they want to believe in).

I have been thinking about this a while, but I don't have any good data but do religious people tend to be idealistic? It seems to me that they are and have to be to hold to their religion.
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I'm with the others... I must be misunderstanding what you mean by 'romantic ideals,' because it's pretty evident that religion tends to demote the idea of romance. Especially the more conservative flavours of religion. As religions get more conservative, they tend to portray marriage as a mechanism for procreation, women as child bearing/raising and household labour assets for the male.

Here's an apt quote from the [Manhattan Declaration]:
It [legalization of gay marriage] would lock into place the false and destructive belief that marriage is all about romance and other adult satisfactions, and not, in any intrinsic way, about procreation and the unique character and value of acts and relationships whose meaning is shaped by their aptness for the generation, promotion and protection of life. In spousal communion and the rearing of children (who, as gifts of God, are the fruit of their parents’ marital love), we discover the profound reasons for and benefits of the marriage covenant.
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I think you all make some interesting points about fundamentalist religion not being about romantic ideals. I understand your points and agree with you. Religious dogma can certainly override all thoughts of romantic love and enforce other requirements in a relationship and supersede this.

I think I also need to clarify and define what I was thinking about. I separate what constitutes "to be romantic" from someone who has for (for lack of a better term) "romantic ideals about love." For instance, a person who tries to be romantic is someone who thinks of their partner and will do things that are special for eachother memorable without necessarily expecting that person to meet some sort of ideal of what the other is. I would argue that someone who has a romantic ideal for a partner will ignore reality to some extent in order to see the partner or potential partner as that ideal. For instance, someone who believes there is one true person for them. They may find someone who is they believe to be the ideal and will ignore the persons foibles. I am only suggesting religious people tend to hold to a stronger romantic ideal is because they have to have an ability to ignore a certain level of reality in order to believe.

I admit this is not at all well thought out but is something I have pondered.
 
seayakin said:
I am only suggesting religious people tend to hold to a stronger romantic ideal is because they have to have an ability to ignore a certain level of reality in order to believe.
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Ah. Yeah, doubtful. I don't think religiosity is an adequate measure of how much 'reality' a person is ignoring.

Consider Postmodernism: that's a case study of agnostics wilfully living in an alternate universe.

And I'm sensitive to this in Vancouver, but Confucionist southeast asia and China are essentially a billion atheists who are superstitious up the yin-yang, no pun intended.
 
blutoski said:
Ah. Yeah, doubtful. I don't think religiosity is an adequate measure of how much 'reality' a person is ignoring.
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It's a horrible one. Theists can compartmentalize as well as anyone else. They can be fully rational in some areas and completely bat-crap crazy in others. Furthermore, someone CAN be a theist based on logic. Remember, logic is GIGO--if their data input is flawed (and we ALL have flawed in our data input, they are hard-wired into human brains), they may use a perfectly sound chain of reasoning to reach a conclusion that's flawed. That's why scientists are so exacting in data collection: bad data=bad interpretation.

Secondly, atheists can compartmentalize as well as anyone else. Furthermore, ALL "atheism" means is "this person doesn't believe in gods". We like to think that they disbelieve for rational reasons, but if all we know is that they're an atheist it may just as easily be that their cheese sandwich told them gods don't exist, and the wallpaper confirmed it.

Atheism and theism do not equal rational and irrational. One must look beyond the label to understand WHY the person is a theist or atheist in order to determine rationality or irrationality.
 
I think what you are seeing is that idealistic uncritical people are idealistic and uncritical about the social norms of their upbringing. Most people where you live were probably raised in the Christian faith, at least as far as identification with and simply believing in God. If most of your available dating prospects grew up in humanist or even explicitly atheistic households I suspect you would still find plenty of uncritical idealistic ideals about romance.

An ex-coworker of mine constantly posts up religious messages on Facebook. Often times they are critical of how others are practicing their faith, or framing the Message. She shared a blog about how there is no such thing as a "one true soul mate" or even "God's match for you."
 
It's interesting that certain Christian apologists claim that everything of value in Western Civilization came from Christianity. I believe it was in Dinesh D'Souza's book What's So Great About Christianity? that he asserts Christianity is responsible for Western Civilization's development of science, capitalism, democracy and romantic love. His rationale seems to be that these institution are mainly found in Western Civilization, and our civilization is Christian, so . . . .

As to romantic ideals being identified with Christianity, as I recall, Ayn Rand, a militant atheist, held the Romantic Period up as the highest in art and literature and had hot and heavy romances among her main characters.
 
I'm an atheist, but (perhaps ironically?) my favorite quote above love comes from the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:1-7 (New International Version).

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
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One thing I have noticed is that Christians and other religious/spiritually inclined people are more likely to believe that they and their current partner were "meant for each other", that "God" or "fate" or "destiny" brought them together.

Atheists and skeptics are not inclined to believe things like that. We believe that we met at a party, thought the other one was hot, and had a good time together. If it goes on long enough and we still seem to like each other, why not save on the rent payments?

That isn't the same as not going along with the idea of "romantic love". The romantics among us figure it's all just hormones, but aren't those wicked awesome hormones?
 
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