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Relationship of Marxism to Progressive Policies and the Virtues or Risks Thereof

Emily's Cat

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Avoiding a derail, originally from here:
Thanks for your list! I'm not familiar enough with Marx to say which of the above ideas are rooted in his writings and which aren't; not every progressive idea can be traced back to Marx's core idea of class struggle and his revolutionary solution.
Marx' approach was strictly based on class, even though such classes were poorly defined. That said, the foundation of Marx's approach was premised on an insurmountable conflict between the 'oppressed' and the 'oppressor'. Woven throughout their philosophy is an unspoken assumption that each can only be one thing, and that there's no overlap between them. That of course is an absurd notion... but philosophy in general quite frequently oversimplifies complex relationships.

Many progressive notions are also based on this oppressed vs oppressor assumption, and they often exhibit the same style of oversimplification that Marx assumed. Race relations in the US, for example, are framed as if it's inescapably black vs white, and as if black people can only be viewed as oppressed and white people can only be viewed as oppressor. That's the underlying premise of anti-racism, and it's embedded throughout critical race theory. It's also the foundational framework for queer theory, gender studies, and modern liberal feminism, among many other topics. While it's rarely stated outright, there's a common thematic approach in these progressive concepts that frames whoever has been labeled 'oppressor' as being malicious and selfish, motivated purely by greed and a desire for power over others; similarly it frames the 'oppressed' as being powerless, noble, and it excuses them from any responsibility for their own outcomes.

Me... I'm a bit more pragmatic. People are not black and white. Nobody is wholly evil, and nobody is wholly good, nobody has complete control over the course of their lives, but neither are they impotent to alter that course.
It also shows me you're not a follower of hard-right ideology. You're more nuanced than that, which causes no small amount of confusion among many posters here.
Honestly, I don't think I'm "right" at all. I have very few views that are even conservative, and those are based in the concept of fiduciary responsibility rather than political ideology. Most of my views are historically liberal, some are libertarian. My general approach is to maximize personal freedom within reason, minimize the opportunity to infringe upon the freedom of others, provide collective benefit for those few things that are inefficient in a competitive market (utilities, for example), provide a minimum viable safety net that focuses on 'teaching a person to fish' and enables progress toward self-sufficiency, and a market that includes well-thought out regulation for consumer protection against exploitation and profiteering, and a very strict respect for personal privacy provided nobody is being harmed. To me, there's rarely a singular solution to any problem, it's a matter of finding a balance that works best for most people most of the time.
I certainly fall into the progressive camp; for me, reducing social inequality and wealth disparity are big on the list of things I like. I'm also in favour of government intervention to help society toward those goals, which I suspect you're probably not, or at least to a much lesser degree than I am.
Probably to a lesser degree. I think we currently have too much wealth inequality... but I also think that some inequality is necessary for innovation. In order to take risks on new ideas, new technologies, new ventures, we need to have at least some people who have enough wealth that the marginal value of a few million is relatively low for them to be willing to invest in something that could be a complete loss. On the other hand, I have some serious philosophical qualms about that capital being in the hands of companies and corporations, especially if those companies are publicly traded. Over the years, I've started to think that stock markets might be a bad idea...
Here's where I agree with you:
  • Destruction of meritocracy. People should be assessed on skill as well as other characteristics.
  • Teaching to the lowest common denominator and removing programs for gifted children. People learn at different rates, and education systems can really struggle with this.
  • Presumed oppression as a basis for monetary reward in the form of reparations or unearned incomes. This should be means-tested; for example, reparations in Canada for the residential school system. Individuals should be compensated for abuse. I'm uncertain what should be done to address the huge impact the schools had on Canada's indigenous population.
  • Diversity of external characteristics as a business objective while seeking strict conformity of thought and viewpoint. DEI programs need to be engaged and active, and have clear goals. I suspect you're not in favour of any sort of DEI, but I wonder if you've studied the idea in depth or are just echoing its opponents' talking points.
I'm not in favor of programs that prioritize anyone on the basis of external characteristics; I'm adamantly opposed to programs that deprioritize anyone on the basis of those characteristics. I believe that externalities should be irrelevant in the vast majority of cases. I grew up as the child of a black step-father, with a mixed sister, in a military household, during a time when the military had a high proportion of foreign service members. I LOVE learning about other cultures, other languages, other traditions, and being exposed to all the beauty that is humanity. But I also value diversity of viewpoint, and I think that's a more important goal than skin color. I also think that when there are standards that are necessary for the competent and safe performance of a role, those standards should be inflexible, regardless of what some people might consider extenuating circumstances. For example... as much of a feminist as I am, I think it's abhorrent to have different strength and fitness requirements for female firefighters than for male. If I'm in a burning building, I don't care that my local fire station has a 50/50 ratio of females, I only care that they can carry my unconscious spouse out of the house so they don't die.
Here's where we differ:
  • Universal basic income. Studies have shown UBI actually encourages people to seek out better jobs if they're underemployed. It does not increase reliance on the welfare state, nor does it encourage people to be lazy (probably because the UBI benefits merely keep one alive; they don't allow the person to prosper.) But I'm not certain how it can be funded.
I have two objections to UBI. The first is philosophical in that I don't think anyone else should be obligated to keep me alive and see to my needs. The mere fact that I got born some 50-odd years ago doesn't give me the right to continue being alive at someone else's expense. I am all for needs-based assistance paired with a 'graduation program' that moves people out of that state of need, and I support voluntary charity as much as possible (I think go fund me and similar things are an absolutely fantastic invention that allows large numbers of people to chip in small amounts to help others out). The second objection is funding and sustainability. The tests that have been done were all small scale and externally funded - the money to provide the UBI was provided by grant by third parties interested in seeing if it altered behavior. It hasn't been tested in a scenario where it needs to be self-sustaining, nor has it been tested over a long period of time. I think the intent is great, but I think the application is doomed. Consider it a differential equation across a time-series: all it takes is a relatively small number of freeloaders to start an increasing scale of contributions from a shrinking population of contributors. And once it extends to a second generation who has never known a world without it, I think the risk of freeloading will grow very quickly. I think it's an inherently unstable scheme.
  • Maximization of leisure time as an objective. That doesn't mean people don't have to work, but no one should be a slave to their job, and people should not have to spend more than 50% of their waking hours working and commuting back and forth to a place of employment.
Commuting is an entirely separate issue, and I'm of the opinion that highly centralized maga-corporations paired with gentrification is the biggest culprit here.
  • Expansion of the social safety net to encompass discomfort rather than strict need. A healthy population is better than an unhealthy one, and less expensive.
Healthy is not the same as comfort. As I've already said, I think our social safety nets should be minimum viable and intentionally paired with programs to remove dependence. It should be a "break glass in case of emergency" thing, not a base expectation.
  • Socially funded medical services that cover more than critical care and necessary treatment. A failure to fund non-critical care often leads people to not seeking are until the situation becomes critical, making the subsequent treatment more expensive and the recovery longer. There's also the possibility the person may die when an earlier intervention could have saved a life.
Alternatively... the social funding could be based on critical care, with a private market that addresses non-critical needs. I'm a health insurance actuary, and that's where my view comes from. The way our system currently works incorporates a whole lot of routine care that isn't actually the province of insurance at all. It would be like expecting your auto insurance to cover all of our oil changes, routine maintenance, and give you a fresh set of tires every couple of years - it would quickly become unaffordable for a large number of people. It also ends up absolving consumers of responsibility for that maintenance. Even worse, it ends up providing an incentive for the providers of those services to charge ever higher prices, because the cost to value ratio is hidden via the spreading of risk. How much do you think tire manufacturers would charge for a new set of goodyears if they knew that everyone's auto insurance was *required* to pay for them every couple of years? What do you think that would do the auto premiums?
  • An ever-expanding list of required "preventive" screenings and treatments as free services. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Trite, perhaps, but in the long run encouraging good health is less expensive than treating the problems caused by bad health.
Encourage yes, require no. Like I said - I'm happy for all those preventive measures to exist, but I object to other people being expected to pay for them when those services don't protect the public as a whole. And I'll also admit to being a bit peevish about this one - there are a whole lot of actual preventive medicines that aren't covered as "preventive". I'm epileptic, and the cost of my anti-seizure medicine is absurd, especially since it's been generic for 17 years and is the most commonly prescribed and safest one available. It literally prevents me from having potentially lethal seizures. I'm not above pettiness, but I at least try to be aware of it when it happens :).
  • Living wages for part-time jobs that should be predominantly filled by high-school kids. This one's tough to argue against, but in my opinion not everyone can land and maintain a job that pays better than minimum wage.
Why not? People could just a couple generations ago. This is a flaw with poorly regulated capitalism in a publicly traded stock market that provides a perverse incentive to move low-skilled work to developing nations and exploit children and poor people with no oversight for working conditions. There are tons of potential low-skill manufacturing, assembly, and industrial jobs that 99.99% of people in the US could do. But large companies seeking profit on behalf of shareholders offshored everything, thus depriving US citizens of a whole lot of employment.

Opinions vary, but this might be one of the views I hold that actually *is* fairly conservative: Each nation should have a duty to prioritize the needs and opportunities of its own citizens above the profits of shareholders - especially if those shares can be purchased by foreign investors. I think it's irresponsible to have a system in which US businesses end up prioritizing the returns for foreign investors above the quality of life of their fellow citizens.
Most of the paragraph is covered in my previous points: preventing disease is less expensive than curing it. That goes for fully funded public medical care as well as public/private model. That means, unfortunately, here in Canada my taxes having to treat a life-long smoker's lung cancer and a drug user's hepatitis C. This is where other public health measures can help reduce the incidence and the subsequent treatment costs.
I'd definitely prefer an effective mitigation approach to a treatment after the fact approach. But effectiveness is paramount - I think it's negligent of a country to use the fruit of the labor of its citizens to play around and experiment in ways that a reasonably intelligent and prudent person would easily recognize as extremely likely to fail or be counterproductive.
 
You mean like when the economic output increases by 4% and yet employment not only doesn't increase, but actually remains stagnant? How much inequality do you think is proper? How many people need to be homeless and die from a lack of healthcare for motivation?
 
You mean like when the economic output increases by 4% and yet employment not only doesn't increase, but actually remains stagnant? How much inequality do you think is proper? How many people need to be homeless and die from a lack of healthcare for motivation?
How about you start by telling me what you've assumed my views to be so I can correct your misunderstandings?
 
How about you start by telling me what you've assumed my views to be so I can correct your misunderstandings?
I'm not assuming anything. You did say "but I also think that some inequality is necessary for innovation."
Inequality is totally out of hand. And given the policies that conservatives and Republicans generally stand for, I cannot help but see them as selfish, unfeeling jerks.

Also, being a white male, I don't think, but know that cultural biases and advantages of looking like me or being born with wealth is a monstrous advantage. One can have a very good idea of the probable success of an individual simply by knowing their zip code where they lived in high school.

There's a very good reason that the preeminent philosopher for Democrats is John Rawls and for Republicans it is Ann Rand.
 
Marx' approach was strictly based on class, even though such classes were poorly defined.
I think it's best to first look at Marx the man. He was slothful, useless, always bumming others for money. So he created a whole political/economic philosophy that justified his sloth as good. So sad that so many had to suffer because of that twat.

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I think it's best to first look at Marx the man. He was slothful, useless, always bumming others for money. So he created a whole political/economic philosophy that justified his sloth as good. So sad that so many had to suffer because of that twat.
Out of curiosity, have you read Das Kapital? That Marx was highly complimentary of capitalism in it?

Do you get that the Communist rebellion was a result of the massive abuses of capitalism and the inhumane conditions caused by the industrial revolution? And that the Soviet Socialist Republic didn't actually reflect what Marx wrote. Marx was right about a lot and wrong about a lot. Like us all.
 
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I think it's best to first look at Marx the man. He was slothful, useless, always bumming others for money. So he created a whole political/economic philosophy that justified his sloth as good. So sad that so many had to suffer because of that twat.
This is an example of attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
 
This is an example of attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
And if we stopped listening to people on those grounds, the world would be a very different place (for better and/or worse. Probably worse on the whole, since great thinkers are not usually remarkably athletic and wealthy. But I suspect that there are also a few slothful, greedy ones that Trausti likes.)
 
Capitalism is by definition anti-Meritocratic, as Capital is not a human quality: the essence of Capitalism is that you are entitled to a share of the profits regardless of who you are or what you do - you don't even have to be Human to receive profits.

Marxism is fundamentally meritocratic in that it is putting full compensation for your work at the center.
 
Who advocates for Marxism these days? Are there any parties in the "west" (that have any significant electoral success, there will always be 10 person political parties) that want to install anything like a Marxist system? To me railing against Marxism these days is as quaint as railing against the Corn laws.

Marxism had its time and like all ideologies it failed to achieve its end goal.
 
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This is an example of attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
Exactly. A classic example of the ad hominem fallacy.
1. The Soviet Socialist Republic wasn't actually communist.
2. it was an authoritarian dictatorship.
3. It reflected little of what Karl Marx and Max Engells wrote in the Communist Manufesto.

Most importantly, I know of no one advocating for a communist economic system.
 
I am quite fond of the mix of welfare and capitalism with restraints that we have in the Nordic countries. When the balance is right, it works really well.

The thing about welfare, and universal health care, and good, free schools for everyone, is that it benefits the capitalists as well - healthy, well-educated people are very useful employees. It also makes for a stable society in general.
 
Out of curiosity, have you read Das Kapital? That Marx was highly complimentary of capitalism in it?

Do you get that the Communist rebellion was a result of the massive abuses of capitalism and the inhumane conditions caused by the industrial revolution? And that the Soviet Socialist Republic didn't actually reflect what Marx wrote. Marx was right about a lot and wrong about a lot. Like us all.
I get the economic system he proposed was one that excused his behavior. I mean, would you go for a health plan proposed by a fat guy?
 
This is an example of attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
Motive and bias are always relevant. It's not really surprising that supporters of Marxism are often as slothful as him.
 
I get the economic system he proposed was one that excused his behavior. I mean, would you go for a health plan proposed by a fat guy?
As slothful as Marx may have been, he was right about a whole lot. The unfettered capitalism of the industrial revolution caused a lot of misery. That the economic system that he advocated for was significantly flawed does not mean his observations about capitalism were wrong.

And I have NEVER advocated for communism. Only that we attempt to mitigate the excesses of our system.
 

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