• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Reading NIST

Hokulele

Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Hokulele
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
29,577
Location
The Biggest Little City in the World
This is inspired in part by the FoolMeWunz and ChipmunkStew polls, the comments from Apollo20, as well as the recent petition to revise (or review) the NIST report on September 11. After many months of seeing references to this report, I am starting to understand how important it is for me to actually read this before I start making judgements. It is also important to understand it to put comments and criticisms into context based on what is actually there. I have read the FAQ, and a few sections of the report as it impacts what I do for a living, but I can honestly say that I have never read any large portion in sequence.

Starting next month, I will be traveling quite a bit for work (something on the order of four 12-15 hour trips by air with appropriate layovers), so will have plenty of quiet time to work through something of this scope. I have gone to the government site, as well as done a search here, but haven't seen anything like a Reader's Guide (understandable given the scope and target audience). Can anyone here provide any guidance or links to resources that can help me through this? I have some background with math and construction, but know very little about structural engineering and architecture (other than to call for help when I need it).

As to specific questions, can anyone tell me the best way to acquire the necessary documents? I have been to the NIST site, and had planned on downloading anything downloadable to either an external hard drive or a USB drive (if it all fits), and dragging along a spare battery for my laptop. I did notice that I can request the documentation as either hard copy or on CD as well, and since I have a couple of weeks to get organized, and since I can probably write off any expenses incurred since it is close to what I do for a living, would this be a better bet? Is there anything on the CD's that I cannot download? I also tend to take notes as I read things, but if everything is PDF, that shouldn't be a problem.

Last question, is there a recommended order in which to attack this? I noticed there have been a number of addendums to the original document, as well as supplemental documents. I am also hoping that the report on WTC 7 will be coming out as I tackle these, and I can incorporate this as well.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Once I have managed to wok through all this, I think I will be better prepared to understand and interpret all of the commentary on all sides of the issues surrounding this report. I am not any kind of a blogger, but would be happy to share any thoughts or experiences if anyone would be interested. Thanks in advance!
 
Last edited:
Everything is a PDF. I haven't had any problems downloading from http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs.

Personally, I found it pretty accessible. The best way to read it will depend on your study habits, but I'd recommend you start with the main report (NCSTAR1-1), which is just under 300 pages. This is the only one I'd consider printing out a hard copy, so you can take notes and questions.

After that go a layer down and work on the projects. All of the subreports, Projects 1-8, repeat what's in the main report, just adding lots of detail. Once you've got the main report, scan through those to get an idea for what's in them, then go back and answer your questions.

Same goes for the supporting documents and appendices. They're all pretty well summarized in the project reports.

Getting through it all is not a quick read, but the organization is decent. I don't think you'll have any problems except with the bulk. And if you do... feel free to ask.
 
If you have questions on terminology or jargon, just post it here, there's lots of people that can help.
 
Thanks everyone. I did start downloading the PDF's, NCSTAR 1-1 looks very manageable, but the reports 1-8 are big and technical, and I am sure I will have plenty of questions as I start going through those.

Do the CD's contain anything that is not available on the pubs website? I don't mind the cost, as I can write it off, but if there is no added value, I would rather not bother.
 
Well they do contain the SECKRIT NWO FILES you can only get through buying the CD and selling your soul to Sata--I mean BUSH.

TAM:)
 
T.A.M. said:
Well they do contain the SECKRIT NWO FILES you can only get through buying the CD and selling your soul to Sata--I mean BUSH.

TAM:)
Click to expand...


Does it include directions for the secret handshake? I can never remember whether the thumb goes over the top first or last. I'm afraid that if I get it wrong, I will be "reassigned" to Pitcairn Island. :cool:
 
Warning

Hokulele said:
Thanks everyone. I did start downloading the PDF's, NCSTAR 1-1 looks very manageable, but the reports 1-8 are big and technical, and I am sure I will have plenty of questions as I start going through those.
Click to expand...


Your Computer IP adress has now been logged by the NSA. :eye-popping:
 
Huh?

Hokulele said:
I would never be foolish enough to download these to my own computer through my own ISP. That's what the account in a fake name at Kinko's is for. :p
Click to expand...

Do ALL Kinko's employees wear sunglasses indoors and sport ear mikes? :cool:
 
Vincent Vega said:
Do ALL Kinko's employees wear sunglasses indoors and sport ear mikes? :cool:
Click to expand...


Oops. They also probably track this forum. I am DOOOOMED!

One nitpick on the NIST pubs site, they zipped most of the project 1-8 documents in nice (although large), easy-to-download files. They didn't do Project 1-5, so I have to keep going back to the links to make sure I am not wasting time with duplicates. Grrr.
 
On a serious note, the interim report on WTC7 is also a good thing to read in your preparations.

TAM:)
 
T.A.M. said:
On a serious note, the interim report on WTC7 is also a good thing to read in your preparations.

TAM:)
Click to expand...


Thanks! I am hoping the final report will be out around the time I complete NCSTAR projects 1-8, but if not, I will definitely download the interim report. All in all, based on my preliminary scanning, there may be a few other things I should read up on to understand all of this. I shouldn't worry about running out of reading material any time soon!
 
I am pretty much finished with NIST 1, but there is one term I have seen a couple of times that I do not know. Can a structural engineer or metallurgist define "creep" for me please? It shows up briefly on page 29 (real page 29, not the PDF page number), and more importantly when discussing the modeling on pages 100 and 104. If this is described in one of the detailed reports, let me know and I will tackle it there. It is described as a process that results in the permanent shortening of the columns, but does not exaplain the process as far as I can tell.

I do have some other minor questions, but will try to get my notes organized before posting them. Thanks!
 
Hokulele said:
I am pretty much finished with NIST 1, but there is one term I have seen a couple of times that I do not know. Can a structural engineer or metallurgist define "creep" for me please? It shows up briefly on page 29 (real page 29, not the PDF page number), and more importantly when discussing the modeling on pages 100 and 104. If this is described in one of the detailed reports, let me know and I will tackle it there. It is described as a process that results in the permanent shortening of the columns, but does not exaplain the process as far as I can tell.

I do have some other minor questions, but will try to get my notes organized before posting them. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Creep is someone who utilizes a tragedy, for example 9/11, for personal profit and notoriety. Oh sorry, wrong context!:o
 
Hokulele said:
Can a structural engineer or metallurgist define "creep" for me please?
Click to expand...

I don't have those qualifications, but can tell you that "creep" refers to the deformation of material as the result of applied stress. It happens gradually, with the material behaving like plastic, rather than suddenly fracturing. Eventually the stresses may be great enough where fracture then does happen.

In the WTC, the aircraft impact severed numerous columns, causing the full amount of stress to shift to the remaining entact columns. Meanwhile, fires heated up and weakened the unprotected steel columns, greatly reducing the amount stress the columns could support. Creep (deformation) of the columns would happen, and eventually fracture. (e.g. the collapse)
 
Creep is a technical term for a fairly predictable phenomena in buildings. Let's say you place a point load on a beam. Of course, the beam will deflect immediately as the load is applied. This is called elastic strain. As soon as you remove the load, the beam will return to its original shape.

Now let's say you leave the load in place for 100 years. When you remove the load, the beam will not return to its original shape, but rather form an intermediate, but still bent, shape. This is known as creep, and all buildings are designed to account for it.

Concrete 2nd Edition said:
If some allowance is not made for drying shrinkage and creep of concrete in design, unacceptable cracking or misalignment of structural elements is likely to occur. In Lake Shore Towers in Chicago, combined creep and shrinkage resulted in a shortening of the vertical columns by 2.5mm per floor.
Click to expand...

The equation I learned for creep was:

Ct = [t^0.6/(D + t^0.6)]*Cu
Where
Ct = creep coefficient after t days under a known load
Cu = Ultimate creep
D = Magical constant in units of days

Anyway, that's probably more than you wanted to know, but I hope that answers your question.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom