Merged Raw milk more healthy than store-bought?

[chrisberez]

Hey all
I've got a question. My parents have started buying raw milk. I mean literally, raw milk. Straight from the cow to the bottle. Needless to say, I am reluctant to drink it. My parents claim that store-bought milk is unhealthy, and that raw milk is better for you, and what's more, goes longer without spoiling. They say there are studies confirming this. I have not seen these studies yet, but I am highly skeptical. Has anyone else heard this? Do you know the source for this study? Is it reliable? Is the source reliable?

Thanks.

P.S. I'm not sure if I put this in the right forum, or if I should have put it in the "general skepticism" forum.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Where in the world did they get their information. Raw milk spoils faster (due to higher microbial counts) and has the same nutritional value as pasteurized.

Not only that but young children are at risk when they drink the stuff. That is why they started pasteurizing it in the first place.

People always forget why things are done.

Now, cows do get vaccines and ones that see non-woo vets get things like antibiotics, but how do you know which cow has less microbes in their milk at any given time?

How is the milk handled and stored for sale?

I wouldn't drink it. Donot allow young children to drink it. I will dig up some references.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/rawmilk.htm


1.

Disease: Campylobacteriosis
Organism:Campylobacter
Symptoms and complications: bloody diarrhea

Disease: Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome
Organism: E. coli O157:H7
Result: diarrhea, kidney failure, death


Disease: Brucellosis
Organism:Brucella
Symptoms and complications: blood infections, heart infections

Campylobacter:
the leading cause of diarrheal illness: undercooked poultry, raw milk, or non-chlorinated water.


Salmonella:
second most common cause of food poisoning: raw eggs, raw poultry, raw and undercooked meats, unpasteurized milk and eggs, unwashed fruits and vegetables.

http://www.canoe.ca/HealthMayeMuskColumns/011106.html

http://www.keithcom.com/kim/safety1.html


DO NOT DRINK RAW MILK.

Found out where your parents got their information. Please.

 

[WildCat]

Better yet, don't drink milk at all. Vile, disgusting, foul-smelling, nasty stuff. Just the smell of it makes me gag. I'd rather drink a tall glass of cow bile!

Get your calcium from broccoli or other green leafy vegetables, and the only reason milk has vitamin D is because it's added. Get some sun instead.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Better yet, don't drink milk at all. Vile, disgusting, foul-smelling, nasty stuff. Just the smell of it makes me gag. I'd rather drink a tall glass of cow bile!

Get your calcium from broccoli or other green leafy vegetables, and the only reason milk has vitamin D is because it's added. Get some sun instead.

But, icecream is soo yummy. And cheese...mmmm on pizza!!

I'm allergic to milk, so there are consequences to my occasionl indulgence. It's so worth it sometimes though-since it won't cause me diarrhea or death.

I've been reading some of the silly crap on the internet about raw milk. I'd love to hear the source that chrisberez's parents have.

I'm dying of curiosity here.

 

[chrisberez]

Thanks guys.
Yeah, you all pretty much confirmed exactly what I thought. Just so you know, there aren't any young children in the house. I'm 24, and have a younger sister (21) and brother (18). So no little kids are at risk. I have asked my mom to give my the source for her info, and as soon as she does I will post it here right away for examination. Just to give you some context, my parents both believe in homeopathy, have raised us on it. They weren't as bad as they could have been, if there was something seriously wrong with us we went to a real doctor (gee, wonder why THAT was, hmmmmm?). But for a small fever, or cold... take arneca (or whatever other stupid worthless placebo). I've argued with my mom over and over about homeopathy, but I get nowhere. I assume it will be the same with the battle over raw milk that is about to start.

Anyway, thank you all for your rapid responce. I'll be sure and post the source of said study here as soon as I get it. I'll start bugging my mom about it again tomorrow (as it is 12:30am in the morning here).

 

[Kumar]

Is it true that fresh milk is alkaline ash forming but processed one is acid ash forming?

 

[flume]

Is it true that fresh milk is alkaline ash forming but processed one is acid ash forming?

I would seriously doubt it. From what I've read, the main reason for protein-containing foods forming an acid ash is the sulfur- containing amino acids. Processing wouldn't change this. Processing wouldn't change the mineral content either; the mineral content is the basis for the ash pH and also the basis for the calulations which some people use to replace the actual burning of foods to determine ash pH.

(Now, whether the pH of ash has any importance for health is another question. Some researchers do use it to estimate the urine pH resulting from various diets.)

 

[Segnosaur]

Better yet, don't drink milk at all. Vile, disgusting, foul-smelling, nasty stuff. Just the smell of it makes me gag. I'd rather drink a tall glass of cow bile!

Get your calcium from broccoli or other green leafy vegetables, and the only reason milk has vitamin D is because it's added. Get some sun instead.

Personally I like milk.

I like the taste of milk more than I like the taste of broccoli.

And remember, in addition to calcium, milk also has other nutrients. For me, the most important one is protein. (Its around 15% of your daily requirement per glass.) I have to admit, I don't eat meat every day, so the protien I get from milk is important.

There are other nutrients, like B12, Riboflavin, etc. (although I know there are other dietary sources for these.)

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

DO NOT DRINK RAW MILK.

The real biggy, which is why pastuerisation was done in the first place is tuberculosis. Given the situation in the UK now with bovine TB, I think drinking raw milk would be mad.

On the subject of Campylobacter, when I was a vet student, the canteen routinely used unpasteurised milk from the department's own farm. I think it was for reasons of convenience- they milked the cows and just brought the milk straight up to the canteen, no need to be prcessed by a middle-man. So that was about perfect, you couldn't get it much fresher unless you went and milked the cow yourself. This was obviously a great comfort when I, and a large minority of the students, came down with an outbreak of Campylobacter!

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Derail:

On a related topic, you may be aware that there is a big 'alternative' movement getting behind feeding raw food to dogs and cats.

http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=2720

This has some merit. It is, after all, what animals eat in the wild and zoos try to feed animals closely to their natural diet. However, the real motivation is the usual vague anti-science notions that processed food is bad. What they fail to grasp is that in the wild animals caught and ate free-ranging prey. If we are to feed our pets on this stuff in our urban society, it inevitably has to come from a framed source. The idea that we throw out all notions of basic food safety by having raw chicken carcase portions and debris being distributed around my kitchen by my dogs and cats is not an attractive prospect. The list of pathogenic organisms that arrive on raw meat is a long one and my dogs are not terribly reliable about washing their paws after handling their food.

One of the hilarious ironies that is true of this, as it is for the rest of the 'alternative' or New Age philosophy, is that there are plenty of people very happy to industrialise the process and supply people with pre-packaged raw food. So, in the end it's just another lifestyle choice in our consumer society, and the 'alternative' brigade can purchase a brand that gives them a warm, cuddly feeling about how 'natural' they are being and at the same time pitying the rest of us for being lackies of evil capitalism.

I'd almost forgotten about the thread that I linked to, but here's a funny thing. I posted onto the thread with the true story of how I have owned a sequence of 5 dogs who have been fed processed food all their lives and all lived well into their teens (average life expectancy is around 12 years). Two of them are downstairs now, one is 16 and one is 14. That post got deleted without explanation. Do not question the new orthodoxy. Hypocrites!

 

[Kumar]

I would seriously doubt it. From what I've read, the main reason for protein-containing foods forming an acid ash is the sulfur- containing amino acids. Processing wouldn't change this. Processing wouldn't change the mineral content either; the mineral content is the basis for the ash pH and also the basis for the calulations which some people use to replace the actual burning of foods to determine ash pH.

(Now, whether the pH of ash has any importance for health is another question. Some researchers do use it to estimate the urine pH resulting from various diets.)

Flame,

Just See here & here. Raw milk is mentioned under alkaline & Pasteurised Milk Products uner "Acid" foods. Ash do not mean here as 'after burnt' but it is nett effect on body pH. Processing of some other foods e.g. tomatoes can also change its pH effects on body. May be meat also.

 

[geni]

Flame,

Just See here & here. Raw milk is mentioned under alkaline & Pasteurised Milk Products uner "Acid" foods. Ash do not mean here as 'after burnt' but it is nett effect on body pH. Processing of some other foods e.g. tomatoes can also change its pH effects on body. May be meat also.

Well your fist site doesn't even know what an alkali is. You second on is not much of a relible source. Heating something is unlikly to change the ph much and certainly no from alkali to acid.

 

[Pantastic]

Raw milk is so harmful to health I can't believe it can even be legally sold.
Maybe you should check the label, you might find it is advertised as raw milk to be able to charge and appeal to natural/organic food lovers - but has had some processing done to it.

 

[WildCat]

I do like ice cream and cheese, and don't mind milk on cereal. But to drink it, yeeech! When I was a little kid my parents wouldn't let me leave the table until I finished my milk, I'd sit ther for half an hour trying to drink it down. Horrible.

The dairy lobby has done a good job convincing people that they should be drinking milk every day, but the reality is only babies really need a calcium and fat rich diet in order to put on weight and harden bones. And then the best source is from mama, not a cow!

Is it just me, or is there a whole lot of woo-wooism in the field of nutrition? I mean, even among doctors and other so-called experts. I can still remember the nutrition major who lived across the hall from me in my college dorm. She claimed that microwaving food destroys all the nutritional value in it, and her professor told her so! I didn't believe it then and don't now, but is this typical?

Pantastic - I am also amazed that raw milk is legal to sell. And welcome to the forum!

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Microwaves, convection ovens, open fires, barbecues all heat up food and cook it. There is not enough loss of nutrition to worry about, unless you want to rely on meat as your only source of vitamin C, but of course you get the same problem with pathogenic microbes as with raw milk. Eat apples or oranges, or drink juice for vitamin C instead.

The alt crowds will say ANYTHING to get you to buy their junk. The pseudofiffle that goes along with their products is maddening. I read it going "that's not true, that's not true, that's ridiculous!"

And ph does not matter when it comes to your food as long as it doesn't ravage your throat and mouth going down. You think the ph of food is the same when it hits the stomach as when it wasn't in your mouth?

Your body regulates ph just fine without being affected with what goes down your throat.

We've been through that before.

If college students can get ill drinking raw milk, then you couldn't pay me to drink the stuff.

 

[Wally]

Is it just me, or is there a whole lot of woo-wooism in the field of nutrition? I mean, even among doctors and other so-called experts. I can still remember the nutrition major who lived across the hall from me in my college dorm. She claimed that microwaving food destroys all the nutritional value in it, and her professor told her so! I didn't believe it then and don't now, but is this typical?

Pantastic - I am also amazed that raw milk is legal to sell. And welcome to the forum!

All the worry about the nutritional value of our foods perplexes me. If there is any problem with the average persons diet (at least in the U.S.), it’s too dang much nutrition! Take a look in the mirror (well at least in my case) and at everyone you come in contact with today, most of those you see could use a good period of malnourishment.
OT, I like milk and milk products as much as the next guy, but when you look at it rationally the only one who needs cows milk is a calf. (and Godivas chocolate ice cream, my god that stuff is an orgasm in a cardboard container)

 

[Segnosaur]

I do like ice cream and cheese, and don't mind milk on cereal. But to drink it, yeeech! When I was a little kid my parents wouldn't let me leave the table until I finished my milk, I'd sit ther for half an hour trying to drink it down. Horrible.

Most people have the same experience with vegitables. Your mileage may vary.

The dairy lobby has done a good job convincing people that they should be drinking milk every day, but the reality is only babies really need a calcium and fat rich diet in order to put on weight and harden bones. And then the best source is from mama, not a cow!

Babies do need high calcium and fat, and while breast feeding is best, even children too old to breast feed should drink whole milk. However, keep in mind that adults do need calcium too. Especially women who might be at risk to develop oesteroporosis. Adults, however, can switch to skim or 1% milk so they don't get the extra fat but still retain the calcium.

Is it just me, or is there a whole lot of woo-wooism in the field of nutrition? I mean, even among doctors and other so-called experts. I can still remember the nutrition major who lived across the hall from me in my college dorm. She claimed that microwaving food destroys all the nutritional value in it, and her professor told her so! I didn't believe it then and don't now, but is this typical?

I remember reading an article in a newspaper about that, where they comparied food that had been boiled, baked and microwaved. I can't remember many of the details, but from what I remember, I think boiling came out as the worst method for food preparation because many of the vitamins, etc. can leach out into the water used to prepare the food. (I could be very wrong about this so please don't quote me.)

As a side note: I remember being told that while milk contains calcium, if you drink chocolate milk the extra stuff they put in somehow detracts from the positive beneits of the calcium. Anyone heard more about that?

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

(and Godivas chocolate ice cream, my god that stuff is an orgasm in a cardboard container)

I have a horrible feeling I may have sat next to you on the bus from the supermarket. I wondered what all the grunting was about.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Well, chocolate has caffeine. Caffeine signals the body to take calcium out of the bones.

I'll dig up something on that, but that's what I learned a million years ago in school.


Well, not so bad:

THEORY: By increasing the urinary excretion of calcium, caffeine consumption may reduce bone mineral density (BMD) and subsequently increase the risk for osteoporotic fracture.

CONCLUSIONS: Caffeine intake in the range consumed by young adult women is not an important risk factor for low BMD.

http://www.chocolate.org/calcium.html


Of course, that may be a biased source

But you can see why chocolate isn't so bad

chocolate milk is fortified with vitamin D to help our bones use the calcium well...

A 250 ml (1 cup) portion of chocolate milk contains approximately 2 - 7 mg of caffeine, or about the same amount present in a 5 oz. cup of decaffeinated coffee.

http://www.milk.mb.ca/Nutritin/chocolat.htm

A 1994 NIH advisory panel concluded that caffeine has not been found to affect calcium absorption or excretion significantly. Several studies conducted to date show no link between moderate caffeine consumption and bone density and mineral content in women who consume some calcium in their diet.

http://www.ific.org/publications/brochures/caffeinebroch.cfm

I really wouldn't worry about it.