Rational Recovery for alcoholics vs AA

andyandy

anthropomorphic ape
andyandy
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AVRT stands for "addictive voice recognition therapy" and is espoused by Rational Recovery - like the AA insofar as it's for alcoholics, but seemingly diametrically opposed to the methods to be used....

here they provide a brief summary of AVRT (it just sounds a bit like cognitive behavioural therapy to me....)

Below is a comprehensive, 200-word description of AVRT, providing enough information for you to end your addiction, right now.

Observe your thoughts and feelings, positive and negative, about drinking or using. Thoughts and feelings which support continued use are called the Addictive Voice (AV); those which support abstinence are you. When you recognize and understand your AV, it becomes not-you, but "it," an easily-defeated enemy that has been causing you to drink. All it wants is pleasure. "I want a drink," becomes, "It wants a drink." Think to yourself, "I will never drink again," and listen for its reaction. Your negative thoughts and feelings are your AV talking back to you. Now, think, "I will drink/use whenever I please." Your pleasant feelings are also the AV, which is in control. Recovery is not a process; it is an event. The magic word is "Never," as in, "I will never drink/use again." Recognition defeats short-term desire, and abstinence soon becomes effortless. Complete separation of "you" from "it" leads to complete recovery and hope for a better life. The only time you can drink is now, and the only time you can quit for good is right now. "I will never drink/use again," becomes, "I never drink now." It's not hard; anyone can do it.

Are you starting to get it? AVRT is an insight into the nature of addiction which places you in complete control over the decision to drink or use drugs. Some people figure it out on their own, others learn by reading, as you are here, others learn better in group discussions, and others learn through skilled, personal instruction at Rational Recovery Centers. AVRT, like the Heimlich Maneuver, can save your life, is extremely simple, is based on common sense, and it's free here at the RR-Web Center.

Although AVRT is very, very simple, you have to know what you're doing, and learning it can be tricky at first. This is because your AV uses your own intelligence and personality in order to remain concealed from you. It is ruthless in its pursuit of alcohol or drugs, but it can also be quite subtle, forceful, seductive, persistent, patient, and has many other qualities.

The disease concept of addiction is without merit on scientific grounds and as an aid to recovery from addiction. Therefore, Rational Recovery has replaced the disease model of addiction with:
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http://www.rational.org/html_public_area/course_avrt.html


the RR is rather critical of the AA

If you object to criticism of AA, you should read no further. Our approach, AVRT, identifies the Addictive Voice regardless of its source. AVRT shows that recovery groups, especially 12-step groups, are virtual fountains of Addictive Voice. When you have taken The Crash Course on AVRT, you will probably be able to see more clearly that recovery groups are harmful as well as ineffective.

Our reluctant conclusion, that AA is only the painted shell of addiction itself, is born of tragic outcomes and simple logic. We base our opinion on daily, direct observation of the 12-step recovery group movement for two decades. We are highly suspicious of praise for AA by people whose identities and personal lives are defined years later by a period of supidity and irresponsibility. We do not care about their spiritual visions and gratitude toward AA/NA, because in spite of all their piety and enthusiasm, they are still in the jaws of addiction, staying sober one-day-at-a-time, engaged in occult spirituality, languishing in the social ghetto of recovery groups. That, we believe, is a tragic outcome of addiction, actually an unnecessary extension of addiction.

We do not believe that members of AA are helped because their program does not explain how to actually quit drinking or using. Instead, they promote a passive, dependent approach in which sobriety is an indirect result of self-improvements and divine intervention. We believe that there is too much at stake to depend on others, including God, for that which we can do ourselves. To seek God while in the grip of addiction is absurd; addicted people cannot conceive of a power higher than their own addiction.
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and rather bombastic in its tone....

we encourage the zero-tolerance ultimatum, coupled with the firm expectation of immediate, AVRT-based recovery. In this approach, the family simply confronts the addicted member with a choice between addiction and family membership. While this may seem excessive or even cruel, the zero-tolerance ultimatum is the kindest cut of all, because it presumes that the addicted one is capable of moral conduct and loyalty to the family.

snip

Most importantly, remember there is nothing wrong with your spouse or other loved one besides chemically-enhanced stupidity. Addiction is not a family disease. Family members are not responsible for anyone else‘s drinking, nor are they responsible for anyone else‘s abstinence. Addiction is the ultimate self-indulgence, and no marriage can survive addiction. Addiction is more a betrayal of marital vows than adultery, because the pleasure of addiction exceeds the pleasure of the biological bond between a man and a woman. Marital sexual love is replaced by a stronger desire to get high with alcohol and other drugs. This is the justification for uncompromising action, the zero-tolerance ultimatum, which demands marital fidelity in the form of planned, permanent abstinence.
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http://www.rational.org/faq.html

so.....is there any consensus on addiction counselling? What method is most effective?

personally, after reading the RRs FAQ, i'd be tempted to take my chances with a supreme being :)
 
Personally, I've not known any addict to be completely recovered. Either they replace one addiction with another, or they eventually revert to the original addiction. That is, if their original addictions hadn't so ruined their health so much that they didn't die first.

Addictions have chemical, as well as behavioral, components. Simply addressing one side will not "cure" the addict. However, the A.A. 12-step model seems to work for most of the addicts, most of the time, for most of the rest of their lives. "Five minutes at a time" is about as good as anything else. Or as bad.
 
We do have alcoholics on this Forum. Let them say whether the 12-step program is bad or not.

The recedivism for alcoholics is rather high, but considering how much time and effort is made by alcohol producers to advertise the benefits and pleasures of drinking alcohol, I'd be surprised if it was otherwise.

Alcoholics who stay off the booze deserve nothing but respect. They've done something for themselves and their families that fights against an incredible cultural headwind of proselytizing for alcohol.
 
Diamond said:
We do have alcoholics on this Forum. Let them say whether the 12-step program is bad or not.

.
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Sure, i posted this because of the current thread in R and P....
Holy Jesus! A Nihilist Converts...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76258

and as i say there, my opinion of AA has been changed after reading some other JREF threads on this topic

AA for dummies
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63880

"why is God in rehab?"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64025

both well worth a read.

I started this thread specifically because i was a little surprised by Rational Recovery's bombastic style, and its seemingly diametric opposition to AA.....
it got me wondering :)
 
Fnord said:
However, the A.A. 12-step model seems to work for most of the addicts, most of the time, for most of the rest of their lives.
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This is a factually incorrect statement. I just finished reading the book Sham in which this was discussed so I don't have an on-line reference but I'll bet a little googling will yield some statistics.
 
I couldn't get into AA because of the "higher authority" stuff, but gave up an excessive drinking habit (I still have problems admitting to the "A" word) three months ago. The chemical dependancy cannot be underestimated in my opinion. I found this harder than the social aspects (we have a drinking culture in Australia) or the general craving.

At the expense of sounding I'm on Oprah, it's still a daily struggle and I avoid parties and pubs, but what gets me by is that I keep telling myself that alcohol has been more of an enemy than a friend. Corny, I know.

I hope to get back to so-called controlled drinking, so that I can enjoy the social and relaxing benefits of alcohol, without drinking to excess, but will go without for the time being. Confession over.
 
I think these statements...
abstinence soon becomes effortless.

"I will never drink/use again," becomes, "I never drink now." It's not hard; anyone can do it.
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...conflict enough with these statements...

This is because your AV uses your own intelligence and personality in order to remain concealed from you. It is ruthless in its pursuit of alcohol or drugs, but it can also be quite subtle, forceful, seductive, persistent, patient, and has many other qualities.
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...that I would look at this approach with a somewhat skeptical eye.


On the other hand, I firmly believe that A.A. does not have a monopoly on sobriety. There are a variety of paths that one can take to acheive sobriety. Many people find one path easier than others and I would never want to discourage someone who is satisfied with his or her path.
 
Fnord said:
Personally ... However, the A.A. 12-step model seems to work for most of the addicts, most of the time, for most of the rest of their lives. "Five minutes at a time" is about as good as anything else. Or as bad.
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Well, it seems that the entire statement was made from a subjective viewpoint to begin with, so there are not likely to be any statistical data. That, and the vague, sweeping generalizations sould pin the entire post down as an opinion.

Yeah, I'd like to see real, statistical data too. Do you have any?
 
So basically, you are admitting that you really have no idea how successful AA is, right?
 
thaiboxerken said:
So basically, you are admitting that you really have no idea how successful AA is, right?
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I don't know how really successful, or not, they are.

As I said previously, they seem to be as good as any other program. Or as bad. This alone should have indicated the ambiguity of my post.

I'm only reporting what I know from my own perspective as a member of a family full of alcoholics, junkies, and obsessive-compulsives. Not being one, and having attended only a half-dozen A.A. meetings myself, I'm not in a position to represent their success or failure with absolute certainty, or with actuarial data.

Is that now perfectly clear to you? Or do you require more?
 
If someone's looking into success rates, I'd also like to see the rate vs. other treatments. Some thoughts from dealing with AA (not as a member, but as having someone close to me as a member):
-As far as the religious aspects, if I remember correctly, you can have yourself as your higher power. There is no prescribed diety. The idea is to have something to hold onto to help get you through the tough times. If you believe that power is within you, then so it is. Yes, god is mentioned, I would guess that's mainly because most members, as in most of the public, believe in god. You won't be looked at as a horrible person if you say you don't believe in god (well, not by everyone).
-If you are not ready to quit, AA isn't going to help you. I don't think anything will if you're not ready.
-You don't necessarily have to go to AA meetings for the rest of your life. Some do, some don't. At the very least, it'll give you some basic tools to work with.
-No, it's not professional advice, and they will tell you that they are not therapists, or tell you that you have to do things their way. It's more of a guideline. Nobody will tell you you're doing it wrong if you're staying sober.
-It's a heck of a lot cheaper than a rehab center, and I would guess it's at least effective. Of course, I don't have the data to back that up (or the resources to look it up at this time)

Sorry to ramble on this, and some of this may not have come through very clear. I guess what I'm trying to say is that AA does work for some people, they are not a cult or religion, and I don't see where any harm can possibly come from belonging (I don't think belonging is the right term, but I'm sticking with it). If it has worked for you, fantastic, if not, I hope you find something that does.

ETA: I just realized I probably should have put this in one of the other referenced posts. Sorry!
 
There are two things that might make it hard to trust any statistics on AA.

One, I don't think they keep any records of the people that attend do they? It is not like a rehab hospital where it might be possible to track success. If someone quits attending AA are they drinking? Did they quit for some other reason? Who would keep track of this and how would they gather accurate information.

I found some stats on the web based on how many meetings people attend on average. But that is probably skewed because, at least here in Florida, any sentence for any alcohol related crime includes mandatory attendance at AA. How fair is it to judge their success by studying people that are forced to attend?

Based solely on people I have known, the success record of any program is pretty low.
 
Hafast said:
-As far as the religious aspects, if I remember correctly, you can have yourself as your higher power. There is no prescribed diety.
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You are correct that there is no prescribed deity (at least in meetings that follow the official policy). However, the previous sentence is incorrect. A person may choose the universe, a philosophical principle, a minor diety, AA as a whole, a particular AA meeting, or even an inanimate object. A person, may not, however, choose him or herself as a higher power. One who asserts that "I am more powerful than myself and therefore I will turn my will over to the care of me" will quickly end up chasing one's own tail.
 
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Choosing yourself as a higher power is contradictory to AA's message that you are powerless against your addiction.
 
Ok, must have been a flaw in my memory. I know I had a discussion about this when the person was going through AA, guess I've forgotten the explanation. I will add that this person, and a couple of others I know, stopped attending meetings after a few years (and have not started drinking again). How would this count in the success/failure equation? Not trying to be a wise guy, I'm actually curious about that.
 
Fnord said:
Personally, I've not known any addict to be completely recovered. Either they replace one addiction with another, or they eventually revert to the original addiction. That is, if their original addictions hadn't so ruined their health so much that they didn't die first.

Addictions have chemical, as well as behavioral, components. Simply addressing one side will not "cure" the addict. However, the A.A. 12-step model seems to work for most of the addicts, most of the time, for most of the rest of their lives. "Five minutes at a time" is about as good as anything else. Or as bad.
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I don't think addicts ever "completely recover". If they did--then they should be able to resume normal drinking. While addicts can abstain--sometimes for long periods of time---I've never met one yet who can continually use in moderation & not eventually drift back to heavy use.

I haven't had a drink or a drug since June 94. Occasionaly I get the urge but it's no big deal. Every day is not a struggle & I've simply learned to live my life without booze & drugs.

I've also learned that my life has been far better without them than with them.

I stopped initially by way of your standard detox. I think having a controlled environment helps-esp with the initial physiological part of the addiction.

Following that I went to AA & NA meetings for several years. Even though I'm an atheist I had no problem with the god thing. I simply chose to see the group as a "higher power"....just some other individuals who'd been where I'd been & were willing to help.

Too many people use the "I don't believe in god" thing as an excuse to not even bother with AA.

It does help--not everybody but I'm certainly not the only one.

I don't know anybody who's maintained sobriety with RR. It's popular because like most woo--it tells you what you want to hear.

Yes--Fluffy is alive & well on the other side...and yes--you can eventually drink & drug like "normal" people.

I don't know an addict in the world who doesn't relish the thought of being able to do that.

Despite almost 13 years of sobriety though--I'm reasonably certain that if I picked up again--I'd be back to my old habits in no time.

I never wanted "a few" in my life.... I always wanted to use to excess and I think it's that--that really defines what being an addict is.
 
When I was a squid, in the Navy, I was an alcoholic. I drank in the morning, evening and during the day and I'd show up to work drunk.. but hiding it well. Then, one day, I decided that it's probably not a good thing to be drunk all of the time. So, I stopped getting drunk all of the time. Now, I drink in moderation and have no problem simply because I made the choice. Of course, since I had the will to change, some will say that I simply wasn't an alcoholic.
 
thaiboxerken said:
When I was a squid, in the Navy, I was an alcoholic. I drank in the morning, evening and during the day and I'd show up to work drunk.. but hiding it well. Then, one day, I decided that it's probably not a good thing to be drunk all of the time. So, I stopped getting drunk all of the time. Now, I drink in moderation and have no problem simply because I made the choice. Of course, since I had the will to change, some will say that I simply wasn't an alcoholic.
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I hope I can replicate your experience. I recently heard a therapist say that it would be possible for an alcoholic to resume moderate drinking, but only after abstinance of at least 12 months, and I suppose that's where people fall over. So after 12 months or so I will give it a go. If I cannot sustain moderate drinking, at least I know I can give up again.
 
At one time there was an excellent summary online of the various studies of the efficacy of AA, but I can't find it now. There are a lot of studies that do show AA to be effective, but most of the them suffer from poor controls. Keep in mind that in the US if you are an alcoholic who decides to stop drinking you will almost certainly cross pathes with AA at some point, and people who go to AA and aren't helped will stop going to AA.

The net result was that it is a support group and not as successful as standard therapies such as cognitive therapies (including Rational Recovery). If I find the link again, I'll put it here.
 
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