Questions from a bar conversation this weekend part II...

Andonyx

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We will also be adressing planes and military aviation in the second of our series on my fascinating bar conversations.

In this episode, My conversation with my father on the phone leads to an interesting fact about Radar systems and missiles that can lock on targets using various combinations of radar and heat sigantures.

Apparently, according to my dad, who could be lying to me to make me look bad, but probably isn't...Military aircraft can alert the pilot to let them know that they have been locked onto by either a missile, or the radar of an anti-aircraft artillary installation on the ground.

So how the hell does that work?

I mean I figure say in an air battle between Us and France (I'm only picking France because the Mirage Jet is pretty cool.) There's all types of all different Radar bouncing around like crazy all over the place. So:

1. How do we differentiate between friendly Radar and enemy Radar?

2. I can sort of understand that we can tell when Radar is bouncing signal off of us, and that we have probably been detected by enemy Radar. But how do we know we have been locked onto? I mean how can we tell out of all the other crap in the sky, an enemy missiles or artillery piece has turned its attention to our plane specifically?

Any of you pilots or former pilots know? And How much can you tell me without ending up keel-hauled?

And 3: Do they still keel-haul people in the navy?
 
Wow! Those are some in-depth questions, and I do not have much in the way of first-hand knowledge, but I will attempt to answer all the same. However, if there is anyone with better knowledge then please any corrections/additions accordingly.

1. How do we differentiate between friendly Radar and enemy Radar?
Radar uses very specific frequencies and often there is an encoded signal (IFF: Identify Friend or Foe) that is used to identify friendly aircraft (in order to avoid shooting down the wrong planes), therefore if one knows the frequency of the enemy radar (and that sort of thing is often known) and one has the ability to tell if it is a friendly aircraft or not; then one can tell if the Radar in question is friendly or enemy.

2. I can sort of understand that we can tell when Radar is bouncing signal off of us, and that we have probably been detected by enemy Radar. But how do we know we have been locked onto? I mean how can we tell out of all the other crap in the sky, an enemy missiles or artillery piece has turned its attention to our plane specifically?
When the Radar is sweeping for targets, the antenna is directed over a large area which means that it takes some time (perhaps several seconds) between 'pings' (somewhat like the rotating beacon on a lighthouse). However, if there is one aircraft in particular to be analyzed, then the Radar antenna can be focused on just that one target (as one would do with a flashlight or a spotlight) and there will be several pings every second.
Assuming that the aircraft being targeted does have the equipment to tell when it detects these pings, then it will likely also have an alarm system that will trigger if it receives several pings every second (which is normally only done if aircraft is being targeted).

And 3: Do they still keel-haul people in the navy?
No, I am afraid that even the British did away with it in the 1780's. Although I am sure that many senior enlisted and the officers wish they did.
 
Wow, I expected that to be far more technical and complicated. But that makes sense and is easy to grasp...

My Favorite kind of answer!
 
Since you already got an answer I can risk a derailment...

My favorite issue of the old GI Joe comic book from the 80's features Ace and Scarlet in the Joe's F-14 clone against Wild Weasel and the Baroness in their A-10 ripoff. Ace uses a car radar detector called "Smokey Buster" to detect that someone was bouncing a radar signal off him. Massive dogfight involving lots of exposition on the capablities of the 2 aircraft ensues. Topics covered include map of the earth flying, ground clutter, titanium cockpit "bathtubs", radar "snow" created by firing a bunch of missiles into a junkyard to defeat a radar guided missile, and going to guns at close range when the missiles are gone. Larry Hama was a hell of a writer.

I would guess that in principle it's true that a car radar detector would detect an incoming radar guided missile. Would that really work?
 
@Hexxenhammer:

I think it is called "nap of the earth".

And, yeah, I think it could work, if that guided missile employed its own radar. Or if that missile is guided by a ground-based or aircraft-mounted radar system. It would not work against a "programmed" cruise missile that is following a fixed course plot.

I´m not a flyer, though, just a former Tom Clancy reader.
 
Hexxenhammer said:
Since you already got an answer I can risk a derailment...

My favorite issue of the old GI Joe comic book from the 80's features Ace and Scarlet in the Joe's F-14 clone against Wild Weasel and the Baroness in their A-10 ripoff.
Click to expand...

You know....that is probably the one and only GI Joe comic I read in my misspent youth that I remember into adulthood..... probably for the great moment at the end when both cannon systems run dry in a hail of fire blowing holes in the other aircraft, and the two pilots salute each other as they pass and turn home to their bases.
 
Another consideration is that not all radar-guided missiles have a complete radar set built into them. Many of them just have a receiver in them, and depend on the aircraft that launched them to provide an "illuminating" beam. The aircraft sends out a pulse, which hits the target, and some of it gets bounced back to the missile, which corrects it's course to intercept. The advantage is a cheaper missile, without the added complications of a transmitter on board, complicating maintenance, etc. The disadvantage is that if you can disrupt the targeting aircraft, the missile just wanders away. It isn't fire-and-forget. The targeting aircraft has to stay "on target", and is putting out a strong signal that leads right back to the source. A good antiradiation missile will ride back up the beam and spoil the pilot's day.

IR works better for fire-and-forget, because it's a passive system that looks for a signature coming from the target. And then there are those extravagantly expensive missiles such as the Phoenix that DO contain a complete active radar guideance system.

Regards;
Beanbag
 
Beanbag said:
Another consideration is that not all radar-guided missiles have a complete radar set built into them. Many of them just have a receiver in them, and [...] then there are those extravagantly expensive missiles such as the Phoenix that DO contain a complete active radar guideance system.

Regards;
Beanbag
Click to expand...

Boom!

That's what I'm talking about!
 
Hexxenhammer said:

I would guess that in principle it's true that a car radar detector would detect an incoming radar guided missile. Would that really work?
Click to expand...

In principle ( all radars and detectors work basically the same way ) , yes.. But it would have to be tuned to the frequencies that the other radar is using..

More importantantly, after you detect it, what are you going to do about it?
Without effective countermeasures, it's pretty useless.
Sort of like a lot of MRI's.. You get a high resolution picture, of what it is that's going to kill you...
 
Andonyx wrote:

And 3: Do they still keel-haul people in the navy?

Not that I recall, but they do(as of fifteen years ago anyway)still lock naughty little sailors up in the brig, and put them on 3 days ration of bread, and water... and it's not even good bread. They give you Wonder bread! :eek:

It's cruel, and unusual I tells ya'! :D
 
WanderingKnight said:


You know....that is probably the one and only GI Joe comic I read in my misspent youth that I remember into adulthood..... probably for the great moment at the end when both cannon systems run dry in a hail of fire blowing holes in the other aircraft, and the two pilots salute each other as they pass and turn home to their bases.
Click to expand...
Ha Ha! Someone else remembers it! Too cool.
Yeah, the end is great. Head to head showdown with guns, both out of ammo, salute, listen to nagging women the whole way back. I even showed it to my dad, who liked it.
 
Did anybody ever get hurt in GI Joe land?

I saw a few of the cartoons and was amazed at the millions of bullets flying around, and the continious stream of bombs, explosions, falls, jumps, crashes, etc. that would occur and it seemed like no one ever died, or even got hurt.
 
Crossbow said:
Did anybody ever get hurt in GI Joe land?

I saw a few of the cartoons and was amazed at the millions of bullets flying around, and the continious stream of bombs, explosions, falls, jumps, crashes, etc. that would occur and it seemed like no one ever died, or even got hurt.
Click to expand...

The comic was much better then the cartoon. People died and were injured all the time in that. In fact my (and everyone elses) favorite character, Snake-Eyes, wore a mask because his face was burned off in a helicopter accident in 'Nam.

I remember being profoundly dissapointed in the cartoon as a child. It seemed to be little more than a long toy commericial, which I found unecessary as I was going to buy the toys regardless. :) Even at that age I was enough of a critical thinker to wonder what point there was of showing war as a bloodless activity. In cartoon-land, armed conflict was about as dangerous as a playground kickball match. I don't think thats the best message to instill in children.

P.S. The comic mentioned in this thread was one of my favorites as well. Plus I thought the baroness was a hottie.
 
EvilYeti said:

The comic was much better then the cartoon. People died and were injured all the time in that. In fact my (and everyone elses) favorite character, Snake-Eyes, wore a mask because his face was burned off in a helicopter accident in 'Nam.

snip

P.S. The comic mentioned in this thread was one of my favorites as well. Plus I thought the baroness was a hottie.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the comic was pretty violent, the Joe's killed hundreds of Cobra soldiers all the time. And yes, the Baroness was totally smokin'. Major Bludd was a lucky eastern european fruitcake.

Other classic Joe comics:
All the Ships at Sea: 3 stories-Scarlet and Snake Eyes taking a romantic ride on the Staten Island ferry and getting hassled by Cobra thugs, the Joe ship, the Jane, being harrassed by hydrofoils and having to manually aim their anti-missile vulcan cannon to sink them, and the Joe hovercraft taking on an atol full of Cobra troops.
The silent issue #21 I think: Snake Eyes rescues Scarlet from Destro's castle. No dialogue. We learn Snake eyes and Storm Shadow have the same tattoo on their arms. Also drawn by Larry Hama.
#50, the invasion of Springfield: The Joe's roll in with tanks. Woo-hoo! Serpentor leads Cobra to death or glory!
 
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