Question regarding internet and the mind/body problem...

[complexcontext]

Another question from Ghost in the Shell

In a discussion between the Tachikomas, one suggests that the internet loosely forms a consciousness. Another notes the implications this would entail with regard to the mind/body problem; that the internet itself is growing "mind" generated by humans that is clearly distinct from the physical body...

What are your opinions about this issue, and what religious/philosophical complications may arise if the "growing" continues, unchecked?


Information: "PAT", episode 15 of Ghost in the Shell 2nd Gig

 

[Sledge]

What is the mind/body problem? And have you considered just not watching Ghost in the Shell? Admittedly, I'm not a big anime fan, but from what you've posted, the series seems to contain a lot of tosh. Try Cyber City Oedo 808, with the British soundtrack by Rory McFarlane if possible.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Is that you MIKE*?

===========
* A HOLMES IV (High-Optional, Logical, Multi-Evaluating Supervisor, Mark IV)

 

[Cavemonster]

If you want to call "the internet" a mind, it's a bit of a stretch of the definition, and you'd need to call a number of other things minds first, for example, universities and families.

For all that, these kinds of minds are not distinct from physical bodies, merely made up of far more complex physical bodies including both the biological humans and telephone wires, servers and other hardware.

"Mind" is what the physical brain (and to a certain extent the whole human body) does. It is only a "thing" in an abstract sense for the sake of certain conversations. In reality it's a process, just like grilling is what a George Foreman grille does, "mind" is what a brain does. Yes, I can also grill on a hibachi outside, or get a hundred of my friends to each heat up a tiny metal rod and press it against the steak for five seconds each, but if my electricity on my Foreman grill stops, or my friends drop their tiny metal rods before they get to the steak, grilling ceases to occur. If the human brain ceases to work, or if you are calling the internet a mind, if the cables that carry the signal are severed, then there is no more mind.

 

[Kopji]

I can see where the internet could be compared to an evolutionary process, but it is ultimately unthinking and also has limits.

I can more easily compare the internet to an aquarium. Fish and plant communities thrive with a rather complex arrangement - nurturing what you want and neglecting or culling what you don't. For the internet to have something like consciousness, there would need to be some kind of meta oversight program of all sites. And if there was that, why bother to be here?

So I'd say no. Maybe even hell no.

 

[complexcontext]

What is the mind/body problem? And have you considered just not watching Ghost in the Shell? Admittedly, I'm not a big anime fan, but from what you've posted, the series seems to contain a lot of tosh. Try Cyber City Oedo 808, with the British soundtrack by Rory McFarlane if possible.

This was posted in the philosophy category...I assumed most would understand the mind/body problem.

"The mind-body problem concerns the explanation of the relationship that exists between minds, or mental processes, and bodily states or processes. The main aim of philosophers working in this area is to determine the nature of the mind and mental states/processes, and how—or even if—minds are affected by and can affect the body."

Why the hostility towards the show?

Did you watch The Matrix? Did you like it?

Yeah, it was based on Ghost in the Shell, the movie

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I really don't think the fact that Ghost in the Shell inspired The Matrix should be held against it.

 

[complexcontext]

I really don't think the fact that Ghost in the Shell inspired The Matrix should be held against it.

I agree, and I like your name BTW

It was the name of an episode of an anime show I also watch

 

[Sledge]

This was posted in the philosophy category...I assumed most would understand the mind/body problem.

Religion and Philosophy. I'm mostly here to laugh at creationists.

"The mind-body problem concerns the explanation of the relationship that exists between minds, or mental processes, and bodily states or processes. The main aim of philosophers working in this area is to determine the nature of the mind and mental states/processes, and how—or even if—minds are affected by and can affect the body."

To me, that's the sort of silliness philosophers get caught up in. Are minds affected by the body? Yeah, I think so. Pretty simply way to test this: kill someone's body and see how much thinking their mind does.

Why the hostility towards the show?

Answered by:

Did you watch The Matrix? Did you like it?

Yeah, it was based on Ghost in the Shell, the movie

The Matrix is a fairly decent action movie that has inexplicably been regarded as some philosophical sci-fi masterpiece. It's tosh, and tosh we've seen many times before. Take a Terminator film, mix with "we're stuck on the Holodeck" Star Trek episodes and voila.

 

[StrangeLoop]

There is an analogy, but with what seriousness are we to treat this concept?

 

[stephenenelson]

Let's split the question in two.

1. Can the internet be considered conscious, or growing more conscious? What does that mean?

"Consciousness" is not well defined, and philosophy of consciousness can run around in circles for that reason. I think that at this point it's clear that the idea that any machine of sufficient complexity might magically wake up is pretty dubious. Our brains are well-evolved machines for certain kinds of information processing. The Internet is an information transportation system, not really designed to do anything with that information.

2. Would the Internet being conscious have implications for the mind/body problem?

I don't really think so. If the Internet becomes independently conscious, then the devices that mediate that consciousness are physical ones-- computers, routers, cables, etc.

 

[Piscivore]

Another question from Ghost in the Shell

Have you tried "Serial Experiments Lain" yet?

 

[phantomb]

Another question from Ghost in the Shell

In a discussion between the Tachikomas, one suggests that the internet loosely forms a consciousness.

What was the context of this suggestion?

Even though we lack a comprehensive understanding of consciousness (there exists no theory which, when given a specific brain, can predict what sorts of conscious experiences that brain will produce), the internet is arranged in a pattern so different from the one pattern we know can produce consciousness (the human brain) that I think it's safe to assume that the internet is not a consciousness, or at least that it's not a consciousness that is similar in fundamental ways to our own.

Another notes the implications this would entail with regard to the mind/body problem; that the internet itself is growing "mind" generated by humans that is clearly distinct from the physical body...

I don't understand the bolded part. Human consciousness is apparently emergent from the human brain. By manipulating the brain you can directly manipulate a person's conscious experiences and even affect their personality. So if the internet is indeed conscious to some degree, that consciousness would no doubt be emergent from the infrastructure that makes up the internet, which would mean that it isn't really generated by humans nor is it distinct from a physical body.

what religious/philosophical complications may arise if the "growing" continues, unchecked?

What does it mean for a consciousness to "grow"?

 

[Sideroxylon]

Let's split the question in two.

1. Can the internet be considered conscious, or growing more conscious? What does that mean?

"Consciousness" is not well defined, and philosophy of consciousness can run around in circles for that reason. I think that at this point it's clear that the idea that any machine of sufficient complexity might magically wake up is pretty dubious. Our brains are well-evolved machines for certain kinds of information processing. The Internet is an information transportation system, not really designed to do anything with that information.

2. Would the Internet being conscious have implications for the mind/body problem?

I don't really think so. If the Internet becomes independently conscious, then the devices that mediate that consciousness are physical ones-- computers, routers, cables, etc.

I think what you say in point one is a good reason to think that consciousness emerging from the Internet unlikely. As you say, our consciousness is something that has evolved. It seems to have evolved from the survival instincts given by an organism’s ability to map its external environment to the extent it can create flexible internal models that allow predictions about the external world in which it can also imagine it's self as an agent. Would a computer network develop on that path?

 

[Dancing David]

Another question from Ghost in the Shell

In a discussion between the Tachikomas, one suggests that the internet loosely forms a consciousness. Another notes the implications this would entail with regard to the mind/body problem; that the internet itself is growing "mind" generated by humans that is clearly distinct from the physical body...

What are your opinions about this issue, and what religious/philosophical complications may arise if the "growing" continues, unchecked?


Information: "PAT", episode 15 of Ghost in the Shell 2nd Gig

Minds do not exist, they are poorly defined rubrics for a mixed bag of other processes.

And the 'internet mind' is part and parcel of the electronic structure that supports it, ever have a connectivity problem?

ETA: Welcome to the forum!

 

[Dancing David]

This was posted in the philosophy category...I assumed most would understand the mind/body problem.

"The mind-body problem concerns the explanation of the relationship that exists between minds, or mental processes, and bodily states or processes. The main aim of philosophers working in this area is to determine the nature of the mind and mental states/processes, and how—or even if—minds are affected by and can affect the body."

Why the hostility towards the show?

Did you watch The Matrix? Did you like it?

Yeah, it was based on Ghost in the Shell, the movie

Well, here at the JREF 75% of the discussion is about defintions and some things have a long history here.

I would say off hand

There is not 'mind-body problem'.

The Hard Problem of Consciousness is more a Vague Set of Assumptions and Poor Definitions.

The reason i say that there is no mind-body problem is that there is no mind yet demonstrated absent a body.

 

[phantomb]

The reason i say that there is no mind-body problem is that there is no mind yet demonstrated absent a body.

I believe the "mind-body problem" also refers to explaining the relationship between the mind and the body/brain in general. It seems to me as though this question is worth asking, if anything in philosophy is, as, as I mentioned above, we have no theory which, when given a specific brain, can predict what sorts of conscious experiences that brain will produce.

The Hard Problem of Consciousness is more a Vague Set of Assumptions and Poor Definitions.

Perhaps, but it's unfair to expect anything else as we're talking about a thing which is necessarily subjective.

 

[MRC_Hans]

On topic: The basic problem, both with your question and the mind/body problem, is that we cannot seem to agree on a useful definition of 'mind' (or consciousness). Thus, the answer to most such question will depend on which definition of mind is used.

However, regardless of definition, I don't think you can regard the internet as disembodied. First of all, it is fully dependent on human minds. Whithout their input, the internet would be passive and mindless. Also, both the internet itself and the information flowing in it are wholly physical. So even if we defined it as having a mind, that mind would be an emergent property of its physical constituents.

Hans

 

[Loss Leader]

In a discussion between the Tachikomas, one suggests that the internet loosely forms a consciousness. Another notes the implications this would entail with regard to the mind/body problem; that the internet itself is growing "mind" generated by humans that is clearly distinct from the physical body...

Calling the internet a "mind" is reasoning by analogy. Reasoning by analogy is logically faulty and will not necessarily lead to correct deductions.

Other than the fact that it's written in the context of how to teach Sunday school to christian children, this article does a great job of explaining what metaphors are and are not capable of: http://www.ldsphilosopher.com/?p=128

 

[Dancing David]

I believe the "mind-body problem" also refers to explaining the relationship between the mind and the body/brain in general. It seems to me as though this question is worth asking, if anything in philosophy is, as, as I mentioned above, we have no theory which, when given a specific brain, can predict what sorts of conscious experiences that brain will produce.



Perhaps, but it's unfair to expect anything else as we're talking about a thing which is necessarily subjective.

Predicting a brain state is not a needed condition to say that the mind is an apparent phenomenon of the brain.

And yes we can predict the parameters of consciousness, we can not predict 'imagination', but much of what is lumped into the rubric of 'consciousness' is better understood in terms of neurology than many people realize. (Mainly sensation and perception.)

Now perfectly elucidated, no. Partly understood , yes.

And the 'hidden' nature of subjectivity is highly exagerated.