Question for The Photon

[1337m4n]

Ahoy, Max!

I've discovered a potential problem with your theory. I was wondering if you could clear it up.

On the Wikipedia for "Thermite" it says this:

Ignition of a thermite reaction normally requires supervision by a trained technician, and may require persistent efforts, as ignition can be unreliable and unpredictable. Thermite reactions require very high temperatures for initiation. These temperatures cannot be reached with conventional black powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, a suitable pyrotechnic initiator, or other common igniting substances. Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it will not ignite as it must be at or near white-hot to initiate the reaction. It is possible to start the reaction using a propane torch if done correctly. The torch can preheat the entire pile of thermite which will make it explode instead of burning slowly when it finally reaches ignition temperature.

Often, strips of magnesium metal are used as fuses. Because metals burn without releasing cooling gases, they can potentially burn at extremely high temperatures. Reactive metals such as magnesium can easily reach temperatures sufficiently high for thermite ignition. However, this method is notoriously unreliable: Magnesium itself is difficult to ignite, and in windy or wet conditions the strip may be extinguished. Also, magnesium strips do not contain their own source of oxygen so combustion cannot occur unless the magnesium strips are exposed to air. A significant danger of magnesium ignition is the fact that the metal is an excellent conductor of heat; heating one end of the ribbon may cause the other end to transfer enough heat to the thermite to cause premature ignition. Despite these issues, magnesium ignition remains popular amongst amateur thermite users, mainly because it can be easily obtained.

The reaction between potassium permanganate and glycerine or ethylene glycol is used as an alternative to the magnesium method. When these two substances mix, a spontaneous reaction will begin, slowly increasing the temperature of the mixture until flames are produced. The heat released by the oxidation of glycerine is sufficient to initiate a thermite reaction. However, this method can also be unreliable and the delay between mixing and ignition can vary greatly due to factors such as particle size and ambient temperature.

Apart from magnesium ignition, some amateurs also choose to use sparklers to ignite the thermite mixture. These reach the necessary temperatures and provide enough time before the burning point reaches the sample. However, this can be a dangerous method, as the iron sparks, like the magnesium strips, burn at thousands of degrees and can ignite the thermite even though the sparkler itself is not in contact with it. This is especially dangerous with finely powdered thermite.

Similarly, finely-powdered thermite can be ignited by a regular flint spark lighter, as the sparks are burning metal (in this case, the highly-reactive rare-earth metals lanthanum and cerium). Therefore it is unsafe to strike a lighter close to thermite.

A stoichiometric mixture of finely powdered iron(III) oxide and aluminium may be ignited using ordinary red-tipped book matches by partially embedding one match head in the mixture, and igniting that match head with another match, preferably held with tongs in gloves to prevent flash burns.

Point of interest are highlighted in bold. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the conspirators could've known with any certainty that their plan was going to succeed.

So I wanted to ask you:

1) Given your knowledge of thermite, do you agree with the Wikipedia assessment?
2a) If "yes" to above, how do you think the conspirators managed to ignite the thermite? Would the impacts and jet fuel have been hot enough?
2b) If "no" to above, why not?



Thanks in advance for the input.

 

[Quad4_72]

Ahoy, Max!

I've discovered a potential problem with your theory.

One among many...

 

[Max Photon]

Max explains how planted thermite was ignited.

Ahoy, Max!

I've discovered a potential problem with your theory. I was wondering if you could clear it up.

On the Wikipedia for "Thermite" it says this:


Point of interest are highlighted in bold. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the conspirators could've known with any certainty that their plan was going to succeed.

So I wanted to ask you:

1) Given your knowledge of thermite, do you agree with the Wikipedia assessment?
2a) If "yes" to above, how do you think the conspirators managed to ignite the thermite? Would the impacts and jet fuel have been hot enough?
2b) If "no" to above, why not?


Thanks in advance for the input.

1337m4n,

1) Yes, the Wikipedia assessment is fair. But it does leave out thermite ignition by: a) vibration (ala Crazy Chainsaw), b) lasers, and c) physical impact.

2a) The Wikipedia article actually hints at my solution! I have proposed that conspirators managed to ignite thermite planted at steel connections using something akin to thermite fuse - flexible plastic tube dusted or packed with thermite. I don't mean "fuse" in the sense of conventional fuse's very set burn rate. By fuse I mean a devise to transmit a thermite spark to the planted thermite. Ask CC - fine stoichiometric thermite IS easy to ignite with even a microscopic thermite spark!

What ignited the thermite fuse? A hammer - the jets' impacts!


The jets' impacts ignited thermite fuse, which transmitted thermite sparks to ignite thermite planted at WTC steel connections. The planted thermite heat-weaken steel connections to help cause floors to sag and pull perimeter columns inward, thereby initiating the collapse of the WTCs.


The Photon


ETA: Before you think all of this is crazy, remember that in industrial settings, the ignition of various fuel sources by impact-generated thermite sparks is of great concern, and commands much attention.

 

[Sabrina]

So basically, exactly what the quote-unquote "official story" says happened, only instead of fires, it's your heat-weakening thermite "bombs"?

Is anyone else noting the irony?

 

[Apollo20]

Max:

If the jet impacts ignited pre-planted thermite it would start burning immediately and would have been consumed in a matter of minutes.... think of your typical firework!

Thus any heating of the structural steel would have peaked within 10 minutes of the aircraft impacts.

So why did the towers take so long to collapse?

 

[Max Photon]

So basically, exactly what the quote-unquote "official story" says happened, only instead of fires, it's your heat-weakening thermite "bombs"?

Sabrina,

Not "instead of fires", but rather "in addition to the fires". As Apollo20 put it, "adding fuel to the fires."

 

[Totovader]

I'm still waiting for Max to reply in this thread. The topic really seems to get to the heart of this matter, so it's understandable that he would avoid it.

 

[Horatius]

Sabrina,

Not "instead of fires", but rather "in addition to the fires". As Apollo20 put it, "adding fuel to the fires."

So, Max*, not to get all scientifical on you or anything, but what evidence is there (or could there be, hypothetically) to distinguish MAX-MIHOP from the Official Story?






* Okay, that could be considered "uncivil" by some, but honestly, I'm a big fan of that Max, and it really should be considered a complement that I thought of him while writing that sentence. I suggest the Max here adopt him as his avatar. No, really, I do, that would be hilarious! Just look at the expression on his face!

 

[Max Photon]

On igniting planted thermite with thermite fuse.

Max:

If the jet impacts ignited pre-planted thermite it would start burning immediately and would have been consumed in a matter of minutes.... think of your typical firework!

Thus any heating of the structural steel would have peaked within 10 minutes of the aircraft impacts.

So why did the towers take so long to collapse?

Apollo20,

You are making an assumption (not that it's not a good one) that there was no system or technique for creating delays. That said, my task is pretty tough. I have been pointing to phenomena right up to collapse as being CD-related, so for WTC2 I have an hour to kill!

To be clear, I do not have strong ideas for delays. Nevertheless, onward! What do we know?

Let's start with observations....

NCSTAR 1-5A/Ch 9/App C, Table 9.3, says that starting at 9:12, about 10 minutes after the impact of 175 into WTC2, smoke puffs (aka pressure pulses) were observed.

These smoke puffs/pressure pulses could be seen zipping horizontally across the facade at impact floors, reminiscent of old-fashioned steam driven pipe organs - along the south, north and east faces. The greatest concentration was along the east face where maximum bowing occurred! (I'll show an example in a moment.)

It is important to note that NIST says these bizarre phenomena were correlated with the metal flows, with floors changing their positions, and with other important phenomena. I say the correlation is because the smoke puffs/pressure pulses are from thermite fuse igniting, in horizontal series, thermite planted at steel connections - column splices, spandrel splices, truss seats, and gusset seats.


In addition to these peculiar smoke puffs/pressure pulses, NIST also says there there 7 major smoke releases from WTC2's east face. Note in Table 9-4 the amazing consistency of the burn times. NIST says these 7 major smoke releases were from burning pools of jet fuel directly below the area of perimeter bowing and failure.

(Attached below is a graph of Table 9-3 and 9-4.)


Now let's look at an example of the peculiar smoke puffs/pressure pulses. Please refer to the first 15 seconds ofthis video.

In second 1, one sees on the right (NW) of WTC2, at about Floor 80, a very bright white flash

At second 5, one sees a tail of grayish-white smoke (reminiscent of old-fashioned steam-driven pipe organ) zipping to the left along Floor 80.

The camera zooms in, and at about second 6, we can better see the smoke puffs/pressure pulses at the fire in the lower corner.

The pipe organ effect continues to zip along Floor 80 to the NE corner. For simplicity, say it took 10 seconds to traverse 200 ft, giving 20 ft/sec.

When the smoke tail reaches the NE corner (note the active metal flow!), we then see a relative bright white light emerge by the metal flow, move downward and then back upward in a tight "J". (Note that the white light is seen where cladding is missing.) I say this is thermite fuse. Here it appears that the velocity is similar - about 15-20 ft sec.


I've got it! WTC2 stood for an hour. 3600 seconds x 20 ft/sec = 13 miles (21 km) of thermite fuse. (Better make it two spools.)


Apollo20, I do not know how to get from jet impact, to pressure pulse #1 10 minutes later, to thermite ignition right up to collapse, without some technique for creating delays.

Kilometers of fuse is one (not very good) option. I suspect there are others that I have not thought of.


Max

 

[dirtywick]

Since the ignition system you're proposing is made out of plastic, it would indeed be difficult to sell any type of delay. Plastic doesn't fare well in high temperatures (here's a table for the properties for some plastics, even Teflon melts at ~600 degrees F), and for the ignition system to stay operational...I don't know, but I think you've got a major flaw there.

 

[HawksFan]

At least one.

 

[MIKILLINI]

At least one.

And another:

Kilometers of fuse is one (not very good) option.

We can start a list...

 

[HawksFan]

Not sure we have that kinda storage space.

 

[MIKILLINI]

Not sure we have that kinda storage space.

Unless Max can debunk himself while pondering his own timed ignition list possibilities.

 

[Max Photon]

On the problem of plastic thermite fuse melting in the fires

Since the ignition system you're proposing is made out of plastic, it would indeed be difficult to sell any type of delay. Plastic doesn't fare well in high temperatures (here's a table for the properties for some plastics, even Teflon melts at ~600 degrees F), and for the ignition system to stay operational...I don't know, but I think you've got a major flaw there.

That's an excellent point.

However, I believe that much of the fuse was run between the steel and the aluminum cladding. That's why we can see the white flashes of burning fuse where cladding is missing (and sometimes where sections of cladding meet). The fuse was thus protected.

 

[pomeroo]

That's an excellent point.

However, I believe that much of the fuse was run between the steel and the aluminum cladding. That's why we can see the white flashes of burning fuse where cladding is missing (and sometimes where sections of cladding meet). The fuse was thus protected.

You forgot to tell us why no evidence for thermite was found anywhere at the WTC complex on the day of the jihadist attacks.

 

[Max Photon]

Max explains why no evidence of thermite was found anywhere at the WTC complex

You forgot to tell us why no evidence for thermite was found anywhere at the WTC complex on the day of the jihadist attacks.

Not true.

Read my signature.

 

[pomeroo]

Not true.

Read my signature.

But, Max, your signature is just a silly lie you made up. You've been exposed as a complete charlatan. We all get the idea that thermite just doesn't behave the way you so desperately want it to. We also understand that there is absolutely no evidence for the use of thermite at the WTC complex on the day of the jihadist attacks. There's nothing left of your fantasy.

Bye.

 

[1337m4n]

No offense pom, but Max has almost always shown us kindness; I think we should return the favor.

Not true.

Read my signature.

Well, yes, that would work if it's true there was no arson investigation.

But. My understanding is that there was ample studying performed on the steel samples from the rubble: http://www.911myths.com/html/recycled_steel.html

"There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of the structures".

Would you say this is accurate?



Anyhow, thanks for the response to the OP. I'll do some more research on this thermite-fuse stuff when I've got the time.

 

[pomeroo]

No offense pom, but Max has almost always shown us kindness; I think we should return the favor.




Well, yes, that would work if it's true there was no arson investigation.

But. My understanding is that there was ample studying performed on the steel samples from the rubble: http://www.911myths.com/html/recycled_steel.html



Would you say this is accurate?



Anyhow, thanks for the response to the OP. I'll do some more research on this thermite-fuse stuff when I've got the time.

Well, I 've complimented him on the music he's linked to. I've called him a charlatan, but I never said he was nasty. It is a lie, after all, to insist that thermite was used to "heat-weaken" structural steel in the Towers. It wasn't. Thermite doesn't behave as he wants it to and there is zero evidence for the use of it.