Quantum Weirdness

Hunter

Student
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Jul 9, 2002
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Hi folks! I have finally returned after quite a while. I recently picked up several books from the library including "Taking the quantum Leap" by Fred Alan Wolf, "Schroedingers(sp) Kittens and the search for the new reality" By John Gribbins and Ben Bova's "The story of Light". All of these books discuss quantum mechanics, and all of them seem to state that reality is..well...mutable. It exists only when observed/thought about/ Interacted with.

The whole "collapse of the wave function" thing is pretty mind blowing. What do you folks think of all this? I have to admit that I really want to side with Einstein on this and attribute all of this weirdness to "undiscovered factors". But the evidence seems pretty strong for some of the stranger interpretations of quantum theory. So, are you in-the-closet supporters of Einstein, or have you all resigned yourself to the utter nuttiness of QM?
 
A great many of the claims in QM really are nuttiness.

I guess I would start with WHAT EVIDENCE FOR WHAT NUTTINESS?

I have yet to see observable, repeatable on most QM claims.
 
One of the problems I have with the Quantum String theory is the assumption of 12 spatial dimensions, quantum membranes, the existence of gravitons, and so on...

Becaues the claims are not yet testable, it's almost a Philosophy.
 
DangerousBeliefs said:
A great many of the claims in QM really are nuttiness.

I guess I would start with WHAT EVIDENCE FOR WHAT NUTTINESS?

I have yet to see observable, repeatable on most QM claims.

Really?

Then you haven't looked hard for it.

I'm not the "expert" in QM, but I have certainly seen lots of evidence in physical chemistry, nuclear physics, etc, that support quantum mechanics to a 't'.

So the evidence is out there. If you don't like it, start a dialog. Simply saying something that is utterly, absolutely false such as "I have yet to see ..." is simply a misstatement of the facts of the case.
 
DangerousBeliefs said:
A great many of the claims in QM really are nuttiness.

I guess I would start with WHAT EVIDENCE FOR WHAT NUTTINESS?

I have yet to see observable, repeatable on most QM claims.
Distressing.

As somebody who has worked in a few labs over the years, I've had the opportunity to observe lots of repeatable evidence for various QM claims.

Could you be more specific, perhaps? What are a few QM claims (perhaps "predictions" would be a better term) that you find to be nuttiness, and for which you have yet to see observable, repeatable evidence?
 
I think "Taking the Quantum Leap" misrepresents quantum mechanics. I read TTQL before studying college-level physics, and found later that none of its solipsist philosophy was really integral to the actual physics. There is overwhelming experimental verification of quantum mechanics, but for some reason certain authors of books on QM for laymen take it upon themselves to extend the results of QM far beyond what the experiments warrant (ie, into metaphysics.)

Reading these kinds of books will give you a very distorted picture of what QM is really about. The real physics behind may be non-intuitive, but hardly inconceivably nutty.
 
Hunter said:
Hi folks! I have finally returned after quite a while. I recently picked up several books from the library including "Taking the quantum Leap" by Fred Alan Wolf, "Schroedingers(sp) Kittens and the search for the new reality" By John Gribbins and Ben Bova's "The story of Light". All of these books discuss quantum mechanics, and all of them seem to state that reality is..well...mutable. It exists only when observed/thought about/ Interacted with.

The whole "collapse of the wave function" thing is pretty mind blowing. What do you folks think of all this? I have to admit that I really want to side with Einstein on this and attribute all of this weirdness to "undiscovered factors". But the evidence seems pretty strong for some of the stranger interpretations of quantum theory. So, are you in-the-closet supporters of Einstein, or have you all resigned yourself to the utter nuttiness of QM?

Congratulations; you should have a lot of fun with this.

To those who claim that they have not seen evidence of QM, I must point out that your eyes work, and the transistors in your computer works. They wouldn't work without QM.

A lot of the so-called "nuttiness" of QM is historical and results from what people went through when discovering quantum behavior, trying to reconcile it with ordinary, everyday assumptions about the world. There's a lot of detritus hanging around from the early days, such as the "wave-particle duality" and the "observer" that actually represent states of confusion. This is compounded by the fact that popular treatments tend to view the "nuttiness" as more elementary and describe it first, and many people tend not to get past that.

The actual math that works extremely well in describing the quantum world and fits reality to a T is actually quite reasonable and easy to understand. I suggest ignoring string theory for a while and concentrating on Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), which describes everything outside the nucleus, including everyday experiences. I suggest Richard Feynman's QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter or, even better, the videotapes of the lectures on which the book was based, which you can get from http://www.tuvatrader.com. The book, however, is a lot cheaper.

The problem is that this nice, clean, simple math doesn't seem to fit in with all of the everyday metaphysical assumptions people have been carrying around for thousands of years. The weirdness comes when we try to reconcile it with those assumptions. Like, for instance, if we want to believe that an electron is a particle like a Euclidean point and a photon travels a path like a Euclidean line, and something definitely happened, and this caused that, and time goes forward, and so on, we quickly run into contradictions.

However, there seems to be some leeway in exactly which assumptions we have to discard, and which we get to keep. To resolve the cognitive dissonance, people have come up with interpretations of quantum theory. These are not part of science, and as far as I know will never be, because they all agree with the basic math that agrees with experiment. The "wavefunction collapse" is a part of some of them, but in others the wavefunction doesn't collapse, and in others it decoheres. In some, the electron definitely does go through one slit or the other, but in others it doesn't. There are something like half a dozen interpretations in common currency, and many more minority interpretations.

As for Einstein, well, he didn't live to see the results of Bell's inequality, which is strong evidence against local hidden variables. and he would certainly have rejected non-locality.
 
For those that like numbers, QM makes predictions that are accurate to 1 part in 10^42. It's the most astoundingly accurate model in the history of human science.

What's still not known is why the fundamental constants are what they are.
 
A simple observable fact of QM?

Phosporescence. Simple glo-in-the-dark toys. Irridiate them with light, and you can observe a half-life phenomenon. No matter when you start to observe a half-life phenomenon, the half life (in this case the period in which the light given off is halved) is the same. This is because the individual atoms surrender their charge in a probabilistic manner.

Only mechanism that can explain it is QM.

Hans
 
I have just read in Murray Gell-Mann's book 1994, The Quark and The Jaguar, chapter 3, page 51: that his colleague Todd Brun has experimental findings that the unpredictability of chaos stems from quantum uncertainty, chaos is a mechanism which increase the intrinsic quantum uncertainty up to the macroscopic level!

There are at least two interpretations, which is falsifiable!
David Deutsch multiverse theory, as described in Julian Browns book, Minds, Machines and the Multiverse, the Quest for the Quantum Computer, Deutsch experiment in the future will be a breaking point, because its experiment will reveal if "his" decoherence is true, or wave function collapse is true! David Bohm 's pilot-wave theory is also testable as described by John Gribbin in his book, Schrodinger' s Kittens! Einstein's hidden variable hypothesis is falsified according to Alain Aspect's experimental findings in 1982! David Bohm 's nonlocal hidden variable theory is the closest to Einstein's stance, but it has its price, since Bohm' s interpretation is a nonlocal informational wave, which tells faster than light how the classical electron shall move about in space, and thus modifies the general relativity theory, into a statistical theory!

I belong to the camp, which considers consciousness as the collapser of wave function. Eugene Wigner's interpretation goes something like this; the quantum system impinge upon the observer's awareness, and the mind kicks back according to Newton's third law of motion, and so collapse the quantum wave function! But this is only a hypothesis since it is not testable, maybe someone in the future will discover how to test this hypothesis too, and so be falsified, or vindicated!
 
Yahweh said:
One of the problems I have with the Quantum String theory is the assumption of 12 spatial dimensions, quantum membranes, the existence of gravitons, and so on...

Becaues the claims are not yet testable, it's almost a Philosophy.


Have you ever read ''The Universe in a Nutshell'' by Steven Hawking? It's very interesting, and has lots of pictures.:)

Anyway, I support Superstring Theory(Or at least, additional research in this field) because General Relativity and QM has both been proven right with a bunch of experiments. The problem? Well, with what we understand right now, they cannot both be right . I forget exactly why, but there is something that doesn't work between the two. String Theory is trying to merge the two. If it's wrong...then it's wrong.But we will have gained knowledge about the universe on the way.

Edit: The Hadron Collider, when completed, should be able to test some point of Supersymmetry. If Supersymmetry is proved wrong, then Superstring theory is a load of crap. If it's right...well, it's a step in the right direction.

Also, the concept of strings seems to reunite Fermions and Bosons.

One of the reasons the graviton is assumed to exist is because gravity travels at the speed of light (Thus, the information is brought that fast). SOMETHING has to carry the information.

Graviton is just what we're going to call whatever does.
 
Last monday I took the IR spectrum of HCl gas (an experiment that must have been done a million times at least) the results agree with what would be predicted by quantum theory.
 
DangerousBeliefs said:
A great many of the claims in QM really are nuttiness.

I guess I would start with WHAT EVIDENCE FOR WHAT NUTTINESS?

I have yet to see observable, repeatable on most QM claims.

I thought I was clear, but apparently wasn't. I meant the NUTTY claims using QM... like say telepathy is possible and QM proves it!

Without some better input from Hunter, it's hard to decide what exactly he's talking about.
 
The geometry in relativity theory is too smooth in order to describe the jerky nature of the quantum world, and quantum theory cannot describe gravity, but the string theory can describe both, yet a string is still a hypothetical object, since its existence has not been confirmed!
 
Yahweh said:
... Quantum String theory is the assumption of 12 spatial dimensions...
I recall an increase from 10 to 11. Which version is up to 12?


Originally posted by Matabiri

For those that like numbers, QM makes predictions that are accurate to 1 part in 10^42. It's the most astoundingly accurate model in the history of human science.
Do you have a source for this claim?


What's still not known is why the fundamental constants are what they are.
IIRC, we can manage 12 significant digits in agreement, theory to measurement, for mass of the electron.

Is it correct that that one feature of both SUSY & M-Theory is that more if not all the fundamental constants are calculated directly?


As an aside on 'strings'; if they exist, what are they imbedded in? If they are not imbedded in something to separate them, would they not be "unity"?
 
I was also about to ask for a cite for the one part in 10^42 claim. I've heard it as one part in 10^10, which is still astoundingly accurate. And it's not that we've observed some disagreement at that level, but that's as accurate as we can make our measurements.
 
Well, to better clarify what I meant about quantum nuttines, I was referring to several things from the comparitively(relatively speaking)mundane "How can that wave/interference pattern appear on that screen when I open up two slits?" all the way to the solipsist hell that is the the concept of "I am Shirley Mcfarlane!..fear my ability to alter reality by will alone!"( okay, so that was a bit of an exaggeration, but the "collapse of the wave-function," the theory of an electron in fact acting as a "probability wave" and not even truely existing in space and time until fiddled with are all examples of some of the "nuttiness" I was referring to.)

I was not however going with any of that "I can send messages with my mind because of QM!" nonsense. There is zero evidence of telepathy that I know of, much less that which functions due to Quantum Mechanics.

Personally, I hope they figure out(soon) a way to explain some of the aforementioned craziness without bringing in the "it doesnt exist untill you poke it with this here photon" explanation. Thats my 2 cents.
 
geni said:
Last monday I took the IR spectrum of HCl gas (an experiment that must have been done a million times at least) the results agree with what would be predicted by quantum theory.

Similarly, two weeks ago I took the spectra of two stars and a galaxy, and the results agreed precisely with what is predicted by quantum theory. As well, the CCD detector I was using worked precisely as it was designed, utilizing quantum theory. Also, every transistor in the computers and controllers I was using worked precisely as they were designed, due to the understanding of quantum theory by their designers. No other theory has been stood up so well to rigorous tests, and is so prevalent in our daily lives.
 
geni said:
Last monday I took the IR spectrum of HCl gas (an experiment that must have been done a million times at least) the results agree with what would be predicted by quantum theory.

Similarly, two weeks ago I took the spectra of two stars and a galaxy, and the results agreed precisely with what is predicted by quantum theory. As well, the CCD detector I was using worked precisely as it was designed, utilizing quantum theory. Also, every transistor in the computers and controllers I was using worked precisely as they were designed, due to the understanding of quantum theory by their designers. No other theory has been stood up so well to rigorous tests, and is so prevalent in our daily lives.
 

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