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Psychedelic Drugs and Religion

CBL4

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The Supreme Court is going to decide whether the psychedelic tea ayahuasca can be used for religious purposes. The case is not unique the Rastafarians use marijuana for their rituals and some American Indians use peyote.

Here is a good commentary on it:
http://www.reason.com/sullum/042205.shtml

It's not as if the idea of exempting religious groups from drug bans is unthinkable. The Volstead Act allowed Jews and Catholics to continue drinking wine as part of their rituals, and the federal government (like many states) lets members of the Native American Church eat peyote, the very practice that gave rise to the Supreme Court's abandonment of the "compelling interest" test. It's hard to see why ayahuasca rituals, which are officially pemitted in Brazil, are less tolerable.

Still, Scalia had a point: Religious beliefs cannot be a license to break the law. The government would never allow a religious group to commit murder because its god demanded human sacrifices. Then again, preventing murder is a pretty compelling interest, part of government's central mission to protect people from aggression.

A good rule of thumb might be that when a religious group can reasonably demand an exemption from a law, it's the law rather than the group that deserves scrutiny.

CBL
 
If a religion wanted to use a human sacrifice and the sacrifice wanted to be sacrificed shouldn’t that be allowed?
 
Originally posted by Darat
If a religion wanted to use a human sacrifice and the sacrifice wanted to be sacrificed shouldn’t that be allowed?
That question is why I included this from the article:

Religious beliefs cannot be a license to break the law. The government would never allow a religious group to commit murder because its god demanded human sacrifices. Then again, preventing murder is a pretty compelling interest, part of government's central mission to protect people from aggression.

A good rule of thumb might be that when a religious group can reasonably demand an exemption from a law, it's the law rather than the group that deserves scrutiny.

CBL
 
The article cites RFRA, but I couldn't see where they spent much time addressing why it is an unworkable law...

After it passed, the prison systems became inundated with RFRA lawsuits demanding that inmates religious beliefs, to include drug use, unmonitored conjugal visits, and IIRC, chunky peanut butter, all be accomodated.

And that is always going to be a problem...how do we say which individual claims are a 'real' religion?

Number of adherents? Sanity of founder? What objective test is there?
 
crimresearch said:
Number of adherents? Sanity of founder? What objective test is there?

If we are going to have true freedom of religion, there shoudln't be a test. Either all beliefs have to be respected or none.
 
Which sounds like a perfectly valid point of view. And one that requires the government to be ready to deal with the claims of every possible one.
 
crimresearch said:
And that is always going to be a problem...how do we say which individual claims are a 'real' religion?

Number of adherents? Sanity of founder? What objective test is there? [/B]

I don't think we need to spend much time addressing what a real religion is. Sure, there may be new religions which spring up and aren't recognized for awhile and have to fight for legitimacy, but the religions in question such as the rastafarians have a long history so scrutiny isn't required.

As for what they may be allowed to do that is contrary to existing law I would suggest the guideline be whether or not harm is done to unwilling participants or non participants. Actually I would use this as the basis for all laws, but...

If a religion believed in human or even animal sacrifice this would violate the guideline that non participants or unwilling participants not be harmed.

If a religion used a controlled substance such as peyote or marijuana as a sacriment or spiritual aid it would not.

Issues such as poligamy are more thorny, but the drug issue and the sacrifice issue seem fairly simple to decide.
 
Tony said:
If we are going to have true freedom of religion, there shoudln't be a test. Either all beliefs have to be respected or none.

I don't agree, there is no freedom under US law/constitution that doesn't have some restriction placed upon it. I cite US law because I am American and understand that system far better than I do that of any other nation although I am pretty confident that all nations have restrictions on all civil rights/freedoms.

The freedom of religion is not an all or nothing deal any more than the freedom of the press or freedom of speech is. The press can't walk into a secure military facility and individuals are not free to slander others with their speech. That isn't a justification for doing away with freedom of the press or individual speech.
 
username said:
I don't think we need to spend much time addressing what a real religion is. Sure, there may be new religions which spring up and aren't recognized for awhile and have to fight for legitimacy, but the religions in question such as the rastafarians have a long history so scrutiny isn't required.

As for what they may be allowed to do that is contrary to existing law I would suggest the guideline be whether or not harm is done to unwilling participants or non participants. Actually I would use this as the basis for all laws, but...

If a religion believed in human or even animal sacrifice this would violate the guideline that non participants or unwilling participants not be harmed.

If a religion used a controlled substance such as peyote or marijuana as a sacriment or spiritual aid it would not.

Issues such as poligamy are more thorny, but the drug issue and the sacrifice issue seem fairly simple to decide.

Ok, that still leaves all sorts of religions to advance their claims....

What about the religion that requires it's incarcerated adherents to never eat plain peanutbutter..only chunky...or the one that requires sex on a regular schedule..or the one that requires the carrying of weapons...or racial supremacist religions...etc.

People are going to take advantage of an open ended approach to freedom of religion, by declaring their every wish to be religious doctrine...how is that going to be practically accomodated?
 
Darat said:
If a religion wanted to use a human sacrifice and the sacrifice wanted to be sacrificed shouldn’t that be allowed?

huh thats a difficult one. IMO, this society cant deal with that question, Christianism is so deeply inserted in it that some of its core morals are inseparable parts of the judicial system.
 
I don't think we need to spend much time addressing what a real religion is. Sure, there may be new religions which spring up and aren't recognized for awhile and have to fight for legitimacy
The US government is responsible for deciding which religion are legitimate?

This is the problem with the government getting mixed up with religion in any way. Religions should be treated like any other organization of people - e.g. the Shriners or Optimists or Skeptics. No extra responsibilities, no extra rights and no extra tax breaks.

CBL
 
What I find interesting in this debate is how terms and topics cristallize:

ayahuasca
UdVs have their own terms for their tea, hoasca being the most frequent. It is important for them as it is a way to differentiate them from other traditions of ayahuasca ritual uses, notably from the ayahuasqueros, the (mostly) Peruvian shamanistic mestizo healers.

But it is also important from ethnobotanical, ethnopharmacological, and legal points of view: if UdV's hoasca always contains the substance that infuriates drug warriors, the situation may be different with some ayahuasca teas that are made with ayahuasca only and are perfectly legal in most nations accross the world. What is overlooked here is that ayahuasca is the Quechuan name of a liana, which components are legal (in Canada excepted), and, by extension, of the tea prepared with it and, generally but not always, admixture plants.


hallucinogenic or psychedelic
It is assumed that these adjectives are sufficient to characterize hoasca. In fact folk pharmacognosy and scientific studies show it is only part of the picture: being a pharmacologically complex mixture, hoasca and ayahuascas also have distinctly non-visionary psychotropic properties. An extract of the liana is currently evaluated as alternative treatment in Parkinson's disease with "promising" results, daily low doses of hoasca are used to ameliorate ageing-related cognitive and psychomotor decline, and its pharmacodynamical profile also is the one of an efficacious antidepressant, in addition to possible neuroprotection.

So drinking hoasca is not simply drinking a so-called "hallucinogen", it's also extremely highly likely absorbing an antidepressant, a nootropic, and a neuroprotectant. There are objective reasons for it to be called sometimes "la medicina".


religion vs WOSD (war on some drugs)
As in The Netherlands 3 years ago (where another but similar hoasca-using neoreligious group originating from Brazil won the case and the right to import and use the tea), in the US case it is the religion aspect that is put to the forefront. Yet in two other legal cases, in Spain and France, it is the legal status of the tea itself that has been judged, and in both cases it was concluded that hoasca is not something illegal because what is controlled according to the 1971 UN Convention is one purified, isolated substance, not the plants and crude preparations made with them. So at least two trials have demonstrated that tea legal status is much more complicated and subject to interpretation than US governmental rhetorics currently suggests.

Furthermore, putting religion at the centre of the debate obliterates an important point: for many ethno- and psychoscientists (e.g. anthropologists, ethnopsychologists, ethnopharmacologists, psychiatrists, psychologists) what is important is not that it is a religion, but that it is a highly ritualized and codified use, i.e. something claimed by the same to have lacked in Western "drug uses", leading to "unstructuration". "Ritual" is the commonsense and scientific relevant keyword here, not "religious": what about existing atheist or shamanic/animistic rituals, that are as safe settings as the ones of UdVs?

In the same vein, religion introduces here a bizarre criterium: why should neoreligious groups that have decades of existence be allowed to use hoasca and not mestizo and indigenous ayahuasca experts, which less evidently religious traditions have centuries, when not for some millenia?



This said, I've learned with interest that US UdV and its hoasca are reportedly making advocacy of bigotry and advocacy of WOSD colliding in the same heads. Let's see what exotic particles may emerge from this...
 
crimresearch said:
Ok, that still leaves all sorts of religions to advance their claims....

What about the religion that requires it's incarcerated adherents to never eat plain peanutbutter..only chunky...or the one that requires sex on a regular schedule..or the one that requires the carrying of weapons...or racial supremacist religions...etc.

If one is incarcerated they lose rights. The right to eat chunky peanut butter (if it isn't commonly available for all inmates) would be one of them. Presently there is no right to religious services in prison. There might be a generic chaplain of some sort, but it is highly unlikely one would have access to a shaman or some other clergy type. Non issue.

Sex on a regular schedule? If they are free they can have as much sex as they want, if they are incarcerated they lose rights. Carrying weapons? Racial supremacy? IF either led to violence then the violence is illegal. I am not aware of this being a real issue though, what religion holds carrying a particular weapon to be a central part of their faith and practice? Peyote and marijuana are to some religions the equivalent of the eucharist or incense for Catholics and Christians.

I guess I just don't see a big problem respecting religions rights. Freedom of religion *is* a civil liberty enumerated in the bill of rights so I think unless we want to amend the first amendment we need to take it seriously.
 
CBL4 said:
The US government is responsible for deciding which religion are legitimate?


If there is to be any such thing as religious freedom then yes, a government will have to decide what constitutes an actual religion versus a scam to get around some rule.

I understand your perspective that religions ought not to be treated any differently than any other organization of people and mostly agree, but that simply isn't the state of affairs with the current US constitution so we here have to work with what we have.

As long as the constitution recognizes the right of religions to do thier thing there will be potential conflicts between secular laws and religious practices. That's why my suggestion is to follow the no harm principle in deciding whether or not a religious practice can be allowed.
 
username said:
If one is incarcerated they lose rights. The right to eat chunky peanut butter (if it isn't commonly available for all inmates) would be one of them. Presently there is no right to religious services in prison. There might be a generic chaplain of some sort, but it is highly unlikely one would have access to a shaman or some other clergy type. Non issue.

Sex on a regular schedule? If they are free they can have as much sex as they want, if they are incarcerated they lose rights. Carrying weapons? Racial supremacy? IF either led to violence then the violence is illegal. I am not aware of this being a real issue though, what religion holds carrying a particular weapon to be a central part of their faith and practice? Peyote and marijuana are to some religions the equivalent of the eucharist or incense for Catholics and Christians.

I guess I just don't see a big problem respecting religions rights. Freedom of religion *is* a civil liberty enumerated in the bill of rights so I think unless we want to amend the first amendment we need to take it seriously.

Are you saying that there is no freedom of religion in prison, and that inmates can be compelled to worship as the government tells them to? No reasonable attempt to accomodate their individual beliefs need be made? Jews and Muslims must eat pork, Catholics must attend Protestant services, etc?

Or are you saying that chunky peanut butter, et al. are not 'real' religious practices?
 
crimresearch said:
Are you saying that there is no freedom of religion in prison, and that inmates can be compelled to ...


I said that when one is incarcerated they lose rights. Which rights they lose is a matter for society to decide. To what degree they lose a particular right is for society to decide.

Confined to a locked cell freedom of movement is almost entirely removed. Allowed to move from cell to common areas there is greater freedom of movement. Allowed out during the day on work release and there is even greater freedom of movement allowed.

I really don't care to discuss the prison issue much as the OP was about religious practice involving the use of sacriments among free persons, not convicts behind bars.

The tension is that the law considers these sacriments to be illicit drugs. The example that Christians could still use wine as a sacriment during prohibition shows that use of controlled substances isn't always a legal problem for religions.
 
The original post link made it clear that this is about RFRA, and about getting the government to dictate what religious practices are or are not approved...


And the prison religions are significant to the issue, because they:

A> Include the extreme and problematic self-created religions which put the government in a position of deciding what is and isn't allowable.

B> Take place in a government controlled environment.

And the way those extremes are dealt with gives us a clue as to which side of the mountain the slippery slope is on.
 
crimresearch said:
The original post link made it clear that this is about RFRA, and about getting the government to dictate what religious practices are or are not approved...


The conclusion in the opinion piece was that perhaps when a tension between law and religious practice arises the law rathe than the religion is what should recieve scrutiny.

A good rule of thumb might be that when a religious group can reasonably demand an exemption from a law, it's the law rather than the group that deserves scrutiny.

It doesn't appear to me that the article advocates or focuses on government dictating religious practice. Given that the piece was written by a writer for Reason, a quasi libertarian magazine, it would seem out of character for them to write such a piece.


And the prison religions are significant to the issue, because they:

A> Include the extreme and problematic self-created religions which put the government in a position of deciding what is and isn't allowable.

B> Take place in a government controlled environment.

And the way those extremes are dealt with gives us a clue as to which side of the mountain the slippery slope is on.

I don't see the prison religions as being a significant issue at all. Nobody expects that prison inmates will enjoy the same liberties as free people. The rules governing free people and the rules governing the prison population can be different with no legal problem in such cases.

In any event the small religious group the article focuses on are free people, not prison inmates.
 
"Nobody expects that prison inmates will enjoy the same liberties as free people."

Thati s kind of the point isn't it?

...if even convicts have to receive 'reasonable accomodation' for their newly created religions, then there should be at the very least an equal protection for those outside of prison who want to create their own religions, and claim all sorts of behaviors as protected by RFRA.
 

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