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Philosophy, the Maligned

dglas

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Philosophy, the Maligned

If there is any field of study more maligned than philosophy, I do not know of it. Often derided as navel-gazing or nihilistic, it is dismissed as irrelevant before anything akin to a fair hearing. In fact, the open derision has become so prevalent, that is goes almost entirely unnoticed now.

Want an example? Check out how this forum presents religion and philosophy - as if they are the same thing. Nothing could be further from the truth. actually. Philosophy is inquiry; religion is the suppression of inquiry in favour of Truth. Religion is philosophy gone terribly, terribly astray. Bookstores do this too, completely oblivious to the grave, counterproductive injustice being done.

Unbounded Inquiry

Here's the "problem." Philosophy is unbounded inquiry.

This is terrifying to most, because it means that their precious sacred cows will be brought under the scope of inquiry as well, something most find intolerable - mainly because much of the time, those sacred cows don't bear up to even cursory, casual inspection. And, make no mistake, many of the, what I like to call, "new age skeptics" I have encountered are not immune to this. The open derision for philosophy expressed by many so-called skeptics represents precisely the same dogmatic fear as that laboured under by fanatics of all other stripes. Not my sacred cow! Not MY sacred cow, dammit!

Some "skeptics" would even go so far as to suggest, even attempt to require, that we limit the scope of skeptical inquiry! LOL - Not bloody likely!

I have likened deriding all philosophies as fluffy metaphysics to deriding all astronomy as fluffy astrology or all medicine as fluffy Chi-manipulation. Because, you know, all astronomers are really astrologers. All doctors are really homeopaths. There is nothing at all else in it. Does anyone hear the error when stated that way? Obviously, I do not think all doctors are homeopaths or that all astronomers are astologers and, of course, I do not think that all philosophers are fluffy navel-gazers. It doesn't take much to avoid making that error, but it takes more than most, it seems, can muster. Including some on these boards.

And then there are some (logical some, meaning at least one) who use the tools of inquiry for less than honest purposes - like an egotistical, catastrophic, irrational need to "win" "arguments" rather than learn anything. Not naming names...

This is where the scientific become, (shall we call it "scientistic?") dogmatic. At that point, science becomes religion, because it then becomes a self-affirmation machine. And that is just as dangerous as the madness that dragged humanity into the dark ages for all those centuries, and for precisely the same reason.

If we can take the writing of Sextus Empiricus to be accurate, Pyrrho (any skeptics ever hear of a guy named Pyrrho?) taught us about some of the barriers that make knowledge effectively impossible. Between the is-ought barrier and sense-inaccuracy issues, absolute knowledge is a fleeting illusion. This, really, is not as frightening as it seems. We can do perfectly well wthout the kind of absolute knowledge most seem to think we need. In fact, history suggests, we are whole orders of magnitude better off when we point and snicker and Knowledge and get on with the business of learning. Humanity did try it the other way for 13 hundred plus years and did nothing, but stagnate. Imagine where we'd be today, if only.... but I digress.

While some of the tropes are dated and some are seemingly mistaken (limitiations of the time in which they were developed), many still stand the test of time despite, concerted, focussed, determined, incredible, even fanatical efforts to disprove or negate them (usually by means of willful denial - I won't accept that and you can't make me, so nyah!)

A Student of Philosophy

Yes, I studied philosophy. Logic, epistemology and analytic ethics, actually. In my studies of philosophy, I learned two things:

(1) A healthy respect for philosophy as inquiry. That it is unbounded makes it no less valuable. In fact, that is what provides it with its power - incredible power, which, unfortunately, can be vigorously wielded dishonestly and disingenuously. Abuse of philosophy to attempt to attempt to establish Truths runs rampant. Searching for truth is not the same thing as propping up a Truth. Yes, young Padawan, there is a difference.

(2) A healthy disrespect for individual "philosophies." Philosophies are, to be as trite as humanly possible, a-dime-a-dozen. To think that one represents the Truth is the most profound of egotisms. Yes, I am referring to any given religion.

This is why I say philosophies are tools, not truths. A "philosophy" that thinks it's found Truth is the most profound of failures. The grey matter seizes up, shrivels and petrifies. All growth and progress is over. All that's left is the long wait for the body to die.

This is the source of one of the most shall we say "entertaining" ironies I have encountered in my life. Everyone hates philosophy, because it doesn't affirm what they want affirmed. They love the power of critique (most often equivocating critique with criticism, argument with bickering), but are careful to never apply it to their own sacred cows. Some even go so far as to openly declare some things not to be questioned. And there's where I, personally, must part company with Shermer. One can be skeptical of skepticism without falling into contradiction if one is not so ridiculous as to equate doubt with denial.

The religious, in particular, are especially amusing, in a catastrophically tragic sort of way. While they declare philosophy meaningless and derision-worthy, they actually live for the one True, particular philosophy. I have been told that philosophy is "stupid," to which I usually reply, "Then why are you a slave to a philosophy?" I'm not sure if the expression that follows if puzzlement, amusement, exasperation, or hatred. Maybe all of the above.

Unbounded Stupidity

Now, I have been gently chiding some skeptics in this little piece, but for the dogmatic types out there who may think that I am thereby supporting you, please do permit me to disabuse you of that misconception. Remember that part about wielding philosophical tools dishonestly and disingenuously? An interwoven web of nonsense is not a philosophy if all it does is self-affirm. Internal consistency (at least superficial internal consistency) is easily contrived. That is simply not enough to be honest philosophical work.

Remember that dime-a-dozen snippet? Anyone can create a web-work of self-affirming ideas. That is neither profound, nor particularly difficult. "Perfect concepts" (concepts stipulated so that they "explain" everything, including contradictions) are the same. Ideas not subject to any kind of external verification or refutation proliferate like maggots and are just as insidious. Here's a couple of "perfect concepts" that often escape unnoticed and are taken as given in the popular culture: God and Self-Interest (was at least one of these controversial - oh dear!)

Now why did I write this disclaimer? Once, long ago, I wrote a post on these forums about human efficacy. Someone promptly tried to claim my post in the name of religion, apparently completely missing the point. Perfect flyby. I figured appropriate precautions were necessary.

A lifetime of learning to you all....

..oh, and "Win Powerball!!!"
 
Want an example? Check out how this forum presents religion and philosophy - as if they are the same thing. Nothing could be further from the truth

<snip/>

(2) A healthy disrespect for individual "philosophies." Philosophies are, to be as trite as humanly possible, a-dime-a-dozen. To think that one represents the Truth is the most profound of egotisms. Yes, I am referring to any given religion.

I skimmed this far and then stopped...

Hopefully, your studies into logic were fruitful and you will understand why
 
I think I love wisdom but I can't be sure if I'm wise or in love.
 
I skimmed this far and then stopped...

Hopefully, your studies into logic were fruitful and you will understand why

Well, if I understand your critique correctly, you are referring to the use of the words truth and Truth. Sadly, much of the language has been commandeered by those who would seize the language and revamp it to harness discourse to their ends. The depiction of truth in matters unverifiable/refutable has a content beyond that of the first - an equivocation that has gone unchecked for just a little while with, I suspect, the specific intent of avoiding clarity. There, is, to my knowledge, no word to make the distinction clear. Hence, my (I had mistakenly hoped) conspicuous use of the capital letter in the second case. There are matters of verification and then there are matters of definition. Even so, I was not clear and lack of clarity is an error on my part. Hopefully, this corrects that.

If that is what you are referring to, then may I remind you of the first rule of critique. Give the material the most generous reading possible, within reason. It's not about bogging things down with trivia. :)

If that is not what you are referring to, then please show me the flaw in my thinking. Inquiring minds need know. :D

Trying to keep the grey matter slushy...

And don't forget...

"Win Powerball!!!"
 
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Well, if I understand your critique correctly, you are referring to the use of the words truth and Truth.

I suspect you credit me with way too much in the way of insight...

If that is not what you are referring to, then please show me the flaw in my thinking

I (now) ain't saying it's necessarily a flaw in your thinking... it may well be mine (or lack thereof)

I simply got bogged down by what I inferred as being an inconsistency:

Check out how this forum presents religion and philosophy - as if they are the same thing
V
Philosophies ... Yes, I am referring to any given religion.

As I don't want to derail this thread any further, please feel free to respond as you see fit
 
(1) A healthy respect for philosophy as inquiry. That it is unbounded makes it no less valuable. In fact, that is what provides it with its power - incredible power, which, unfortunately, can be vigorously wielded dishonestly and disingenuously. Abuse of philosophy to attempt to attempt to establish Truths runs rampant. Searching for truth is not the same thing as propping up a Truth. Yes, young Padawan, there is a difference.

(2) A healthy disrespect for individual "philosophies." Philosophies are, to be as trite as humanly possible, a-dime-a-dozen. To think that one represents the Truth is the most profound of egotisms. Yes, I am referring to any given religion.

This is why I say philosophies are tools, not truths. A "philosophy" that thinks it's found Truth is the most profound of failures. The grey matter seizes up, shrivels and petrifies. All growth and progress is over. All that's left is the long wait for the body to die.

If religion is not philosophy, why is it that every philosophical discussion with major societal impact has religions at the table? Why does religion get a place at the table when discussing stem cell research, abortion, cloning . . .?

The point is that philosophy has allowed itself to be governed by religious thought. Science and scientists cannot wait for the "philosophers" to decide how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, they need thoughts on the issues being brought up by the advancement of science and they need them now!

So, scientists have become their own philosophers. (If you don't think this is true, just look at the writings of Sagan, Feynman, Dawkins, Shermer, Singh, et al. In many cases, they are more philosophical than they are technical.) They decide for themselves what is ethical and moral. And it turns out they do a far better job than religions do. In fact, the scientific process itself is a philosophy concerned with seeking the truth and it is easily turned to other areas where reason is needed. Areas such as ethics and morality.

To be a philosopher these days, one must have a background in science and mathematics, you can't get this knowledge from reading science articles in the local newspaper or by having to have your knowledge approved by some higher but less knowledgable authority like a pope, a rabbi or a minister.

I also disagree with your idea that once truth is known, all growth and progress is over. Once science figured out the laws of aerodynamics, growth and progress in flight finally began, it did not end. You statement leads one to believe that truth is somehow a goal that one never wants to achieve. Truth is the beginning of advancement and progress, not the end of it.

It is funny that when we examine all the philosophies out there and grade them on their ability to seek out and identify truth, the one that stands out head and shoulders above all the rest is the scientific method. And yet, we have people here saying it is a "religion" and "no better than any other dogma."

Philosophy is in the condition it is in because philosophers allowed it to happen.
 
If religion is not philosophy, why is it that every philosophical discussion with major societal impact has religions at the table? Why does religion get a place at the table when discussing stem cell research, abortion, cloning . . .?

Mysticism seized control over rational thought mellennia ago and has only recently begun to see its control slipping. Swords and torture devices impinge rather heavily on rational discourse, I'm afraid, as does control of livelihoods and severely restricted publishing priviledges. Don't let me set the places at the table. You might find your scenario changing a bit. I personally think religion is ill-equipped to assume (note: assume) such a large role in important matters. Make no mistake. Religion's assumption of such a predominant role has been violent. That's simple history.

I, personally, have ranted almost endlessly about the moral majority's stance on HPV innoculations and other throwbacks of the dark ages mentality. I think, you may find we are on the same page here, just a few lines removed.

The point is that philosophy has allowed itself to be governed by religious thought. Science and scientists cannot wait for the "philosophers" to decide how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, they need thoughts on the issues being brought up by the advancement of science and they need them now!

The "angels on a the head of a pin" nonsense is more annoying to me than it is to you precisely because of what you are expressing here. That's a question that, to my mind, is the worst kind of abstracted indulgence about nothing at all really. Philosophers have an insult, understated as always, for such stuff. "Meaningless," meaning it has no referent in the real world. Philosophers had to be subtle, their income relied on rulers who wanted to be deified or who, themselves had certain influences constraining them.

So, scientists have become their own philosophers. (If you don't think this is true, just look at the writings of Sagan, Feynman, Dawkins, Shermer, Singh, et al. In many cases, they are more philosophical than they are technical.) They decide for themselves what is ethical and moral. And it turns out they do a far better job than religions do. In fact, the scientific process itself is a philosophy concerned with seeking the truth and it is easily turned to other areas where reason is needed. Areas such as ethics and morality.

Yes. I haven't read Singh, but I have read the others. I appreciate almost all of the work of Sagan and Dawkins. I have a problem with Shermer. I wa raised on Sagan's work. It holds up rather well, dontcha think?

To be a philosopher these days, one must have a background in science and mathematics, you can't get this knowledge from reading science articles in the local newspaper or by having to have your knowledge approved by some higher but less knowledgable authority like a pope, a rabbi or a minister.

I'm afraid I cannot subscribe to this. Aside from being an obvious deference to authority, which is the bane of free inquiry (and the source of a logical fallacy to boot), I have to assume that the means of being a rational thinker are available to anyone and everyone who cares to use them honestly and rigorously. Otherwise, all this talk is without purpose. It is merely the exchange of one arcane authority for another. I like to think it's a little more than that. Why do so many fall to despair like this?

As you correctly point out later on, philosophy got in the state it has because it allowed influences to undermine its primary function (that's not how you word it, but I'm giving the most generous reading I can). Appeals to authority, coupled with unverifiable/unrefutable mysticism subverted rational thought and many hundreds of years became an exercise in seeing how much "new" "knowledge" from tired, old, assumed-to-be-True axioms could be derived. Like, for example, about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Myself, I'd rather use the pin for tacking up a note and leave angels in the footnotes of history.

That I or others might recognize a Sagan or a Dawkins as being noteworthy philosophically is due to the idea that philosophy is not restricted to a huddled cloister of specialists. It's the idea, not the people expressing it, that makes an idea worthy of note.

I also disagree with your idea that once truth is known, all growth and progress is over. Once science figured out the laws of aerodynamics, growth and progress in flight finally began, it did not end. You statement leads one to believe that truth is somehow a goal that one never wants to achieve. Truth is the beginning of advancement and progress, not the end of it.

Okay, this needs work. I poorly expressed something in the original post that Six7s caught me on. I had hoped I cleared that up, but I guess not entirely.

There is a difference in kind between truth and Truth, which I didn't make very clear. One kind of truth (a weak expression of it, if you like) is conditional and is the kind of thing that skeptics and scientists work with. The other, Truth (or strong sense of the word) is something the dogmatist works with. There are two important differences that need to be expanded upon. Sadly, as I mentioned in response to Six7s, there has been a concerted effort in the last couple of thousand years to equivocate the two, so that the meanings become intimately meshed. This lead to a blissful state of confusion that defies examination, which is precisely what some want.

I'm going to continue to work on this in order to get it across more clearly and sharpen my own thinking on it.

(1) Whether or not the matter in question is ever to be open to doubt or reconsideration again. In the case of skeptics and scientists, all things are always open to re-examination. And here, I for one, am on the same page. I'm a skeptic after all. Alternatively, there is a blind assumption that the issue in question may never be examined again, for the truth is known and will never and can never be changed. That's when growth and development stops dead in its tracks.

(2) Whether the matter in question lends itself to external verification or not. In one case, the idea is compared to something beyond itself and stands or falls on the basis of that. We have found, through long hard experience, that empirical verification works pretty well - again, whole orders of magnitude better than anything that has come before. Now I was careful in the wording of the fist part of this paragraph, but please do not infer that I assume that all external referent are on a par - that was part of the point of my disclaimer in the OP.

As you can see, it requires a little discipline to avoid the pitfalls. Not the least of which is having to give up fantasy, except as entertainment.

It is funny that when we examine all the philosophies out there and grade them on their ability to seek out and identify truth, the one that stands out head and shoulders above all the rest is the scientific method. And yet, we have people here saying it is a "religion" and "no better than any other dogma."

Whole orders of magnitude better than anything that has come before it. Hands down winner. No question. If you read carefully, you will see I, for one, do not represent your claim. You can check my history of posts on these and other skeptic boards and you will see I not only acknowledge that, but revel in it. :)

I am alive to type these words today because of medical technology. That said, the possibility of error at any step of the way is something that must be acknowledged. Otherwise, progress halts. And that is precisely why it is whole orders of magnitude (can you tell I like that phrase?) better than ages of mysticism before it. That's what sets it apart from what came before it. Yes, it is another philosophy, but it's the best we have so far and it is ridiculously effective, until we find something better...

Philosophy is in the condition it is in because philosophers allowed it to happen.

Regrettably, this is seems to be the case, although to ignore some other influences would be somewhat of a mistake. Just as, regrettably we have weapons of wholesale mass slaughter because scientists allowed themselves to be used to develop them. Again, to ignore some other influences would be somewhat of a mistake, I think you'll agree.

So, am I at fault for trying to present philosophy in way that maybe, just maybe, might re-earn it some of the legitimacy stolen from it by a grotesque time of rampant stagnant mysticism? To divorce it from mysticism, religion and navel-gazing? Is this a bad thing?
 
I've often disparaged philosophy here, so I should probably make it clear that I don't consider philosophy to be inherently worthless. Indeed, I hold Karl Popper and Daniel Dennett (to take two recent examples) in considerable regard.

The problem is more with people who take one undergrad course in philosophy and then decide that they know better than, to take the most common example, all working scientists and philosophers of science on the planet. Well, them and Bishop Berkeley. ;)

So no, what you are doing is not a bad thing at all. Also, love the avatar. :)
 
I, personally, am a philosophy student who thinks that there is a fair bit of crap in philosophy. I notice, however, that many, many people focus on those parts as though they are representative of philosophy as a whole. The comparison to declaring all medicine useless because homeopathy is bunk is quite apt, and it bugs me no end when people rag on about 'philosophy' as though the entire discipline is useless.
 
The problem is more with people who take one undergrad course in philosophy and then decide that they know better than, to take the most common example, all working scientists and philosophers of science on the planet. Well, them and Bishop Berkeley. ;)
This board has few if any Berkeleyians, but is overflowing with Johnsons who have faith kicking rocks is philosophy. :)

PS. Dennett is not a philosopher; he's a mechanic.
 
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Kicking rocks is, if done with suitable emphasis, a philosophical statement.
I've noticed you at least fully believe that. You should build a conscious electronic circuit and ask it what it thinks.

Thanks for providing an example of the problem there.
Got your circuit working yet? You can also chat with it about Dennett who offers just the same stale old pap. 1. Assume Materialism=True. 2. blah.blah.blah. 3. Declare that Proved Materialism=True.
 
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Got your circuit working yet?
Not that exact circuit, no. Other less minimalist circuits with the same abilities, yes.

You can also chat with it about Dennett who offers just the same stale old pap. 1. Assume Materialism=True. 2. blah.blah.blah. 3. Declare that Proved Materialism=True.
Where have I, or Dennett, or indeed anyone said that?
 
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Not that exact circuit, no. Other less minimalist circuits with the same abilities, yes.
Get one good enough, and when you ask it if god exists, the answer will be "Yes .... now!". :D

Where have I, or Dennett, or indeed anyone said that?
Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play

Mmmkay? :)
 
Nice posts, dglas. As you might have noticed, I avoided posting in the other topic - the one bashing all philosophy as useless.

I have to admit that what first attracted me to philosophy in the first place was the branch of modern philosophy that focused on debunking theology. Regardless of all the junk out there, because anyone with an opinion can get his or her writings published unfortunately, I felt that one of the most important functions of modern philosophy has been to release the stranglehold that religion has on society. Philosophy started out in part as a means of challenging prevailing dogmatic convictions, and because I believe that this is now just as important as ever, I think that there is still much that it has to offer.

Also yes, I've heard of Pyrrho, and I'm inclined to lean towards his form of Skepticism (with a capital S). Absolute certainty is a dangerous addictive drug, no matter what form it takes, and no scared cows are immune to questioning or scrutiny. It might sound somewhat ironic, but the more I challenge myself, as well as the beliefs of others, the more I have affirmed my position as a skeptic. The conclusions may change with the times, as new evidence comes in, but the methodology, as you said, is light years beyond any alternatives.
I, personally, am a philosophy student who thinks that there is a fair bit of crap in philosophy. I notice, however, that many, many people focus on those parts as though they are representative of philosophy as a whole. The comparison to declaring all medicine useless because homeopathy is bunk is quite apt, and it bugs me no end when people rag on about 'philosophy' as though the entire discipline is useless.
Exactly!
 
Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play

Mmmkay? :)
No, not Mmmkay by a long shot. If you make such an insulting claim about somebody either back it up with a quote or apologise for the misrepresentation. Silly evasions like this just backfire on you.

Mmmkay? :)
 
I've noticed you at least fully believe that. You should build a conscious electronic circuit and ask it what it thinks.


Got your circuit working yet? You can also chat with it about Dennett who offers just the same stale old pap. 1. Assume Materialism=True. 2. blah.blah.blah. 3. Declare that Proved Materialism=True.

OK, I've lost all respect for you now.
 
Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play

Mmmkay? :)
No. Martillo, you can say whatever you like under your own name. You do not get to ascribe positions to others without being able to show that they actually hold those postions.

Again: Where have I, or Dennett, or indeed anyone said that?
 
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