Permian extinction caused by Methane?

[Cinorjer]

In an article published in the September issue of Geology, Gregory Ryskin, associate professor of chemical engineering, suggests that huge combustible clouds produced by methane gas trapped in stagnant bodies of water and suddenly released could have killed off the majority of marine life and land animals and plants at the end of the Permian era -- long before dinosaurs lived and died.

The mechanism also might explain other extinctions and climate perturbations (ice ages) and even the Biblical flood, as well as be the cause of future catastrophes.

ScienceNews Daily

Something about this theory stinks (Sorry, I couldn't help saying that). Huge bubbles of methane form in the oceans, suddenly erupt, find an ignition source, and explode? And this happens on a global scale, causing mass extinctions of marine/land animals and plants? How would you even test the geological record for something like this, and that comment about ice ages and Biblical Flood is a howler. The Permian era was before the dinosaurs even! This might be science, but it's pretty close to Woo Woo.

 

[arcticpenguin]

I'd like to completely sidestep the main issue and point out that methane does not stink. The reason 'natural gas smells is that sulfur compounds are added specifically for that purpose, to make leaks more noticable.

For other common forms of methane (ahem) the smell is due to the natural presence of sulfur compounds.

 

[Cinorjer]

I'd like to completely sidestep the main issue and point out that methane does not stink. The reason 'natural gas smells is that sulfur compounds are added specifically for that purpose, to make leaks more noticable.

I remember reading that somewhere after you reminded me. There's been all sorts of theories about what caused the mass extinctions, although it seems to be pretty much accepted that the evidence points to massive damage caused by an asteroid strike. There's been some publicity lately to the so-called "supervolcanoes" that might have almost wiped out early humans. I'm going to check out that edition of Geology in the library this week and see if the methane explosion makes any sense.

 

[Diamond]

I'd like to completely sidestep the main issue and point out that methane does not stink. The reason 'natural gas smells is that sulfur compounds are added specifically for that purpose, to make leaks more noticable.

I remember reading that somewhere after you reminded me. There's been all sorts of theories about what caused the mass extinctions, although it seems to be pretty much accepted that the evidence points to massive damage caused by an asteroid strike. There's been some publicity lately to the so-called "supervolcanoes" that might have almost wiped out early humans. I'm going to check out that edition of Geology in the library this week and see if the methane explosion makes any sense.

If lots and lots of methane were released like that, then the temperature would rise, but not by very much. The question of how the oceans could sequestrate that much methane in the first place is not covered very well.

Did the earth fart?

 

[neutrino_cannon]

While the cretaceous/tertiary extiction which did in the dinosaurs and a whole lot of other stuff gets most of the attention, the permian mass extiction was far more devastating. Interestingly, the cretaceous mass extinctions paved the way for ammals to become dominant. The permian mass extictions paved the way for archosaur supremacy, leading to the age of dinosaurs.

Are they saying that the methane caused explosions or that it just suffocated everything? You can't breathe methane after all.

 

[Correa Neto]

As a matter of fact there are large concentrations of methane in the deep sea. Just do some googling for methane and deep sea and you´ll find several refferences.

Methane seeps from rocks (probably originating from hydrocarbon deposits) and its kept liquid dur to low temperature and high pressure. Since its denser then water (in the liquid state of course) it does not escape to the surface and form large "methane lakes". They generate ecosystems similar to those found around black smokers, but at lower temperatures. And there is some concern of what could happen if one of these "bubbles" is released, perhaps due to an increase in sea temperature (effect of greenhouse effect), what could increase even more the greenhouse effect.

Many theories are around about the Permian extinction (CO2 released from the stagnant lower layer of the global ocean -the anoxic event, massive volcanism, asteroid impacts, etc). But so far, no concensus has been obtained.

A point- the large wildfires proposed should have left a trace in the geological record. Does the article reffers to things like ash (non-volcanic) layers and so on?

The only possible link with a deluge is that the increased greenhouse effect could have caused a fast increase in sea level by melting glaciers (a mechanism that can also be used to explain abrupt ends of ice ages). Anyway, thats far earlier then the biblica deluge and even if all glaciers in the world melted, there´s no way all continentes would drown. At last, it seems to me a clear case of out-of-context declaration used in a sensaionalist way by someone who does not fully understands the original text.

 

[pupdog]

I just got around to reading the September **2001** issue of Geology today. There's an article claiming that a bolide impact caused the release of a large amount of sulfur from the Earth's mantle, which is hypothesized to have resulted in the consumption of 20 to 40 percent of available oxygen and a lot of acid rain. This was supported by Sr isotope evidence.

 

[Darwin]

There are so many theoretical explanations for what happened during permian-triassic.As far as this article goes,one such case is explained but absolutely no evidence is being offered.
It is unfortunate that even though we are talking about the most destructive extinction event known,fairly little of it is understood and events as K/T have received much more attention,as far as I see.
There are good cases for permian,but this does not sound like one.

"I remember reading that somewhere after you reminded me. There's been all sorts of theories about what caused the mass extinctions, although it seems to be pretty much accepted that the evidence points to massive damage caused by an asteroid strike. "

As far as mass extinctions go,only K/T Boundary is where we see stronge evidence for an asteroid impact with such results.

 

[jj]

And, of course

A thought on why North American was so nearly empty for so long, yes, the American Indians were here, but they had just gotten started on filling up the continent when the Europeans got here it seems...

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/yvo/history.html

Now that is more recent, and I'm not proposing it had anything to do with any mass extinctions, really, just wondering what it DID do to life on the North American landmass.

Quoting in part: The enormous outpouring of magma, 280 to 2,450 km3

That's a lot of magma.

 

[Correa Neto]

I am not sure about what you are sugesting... If the below is urelated to your proposal, please disconsder.

Acording to the article, the youngest volcanic eruptions happened somewhere between 160Ky and 70Ky. This is quite older then the earliest possible credible evidences for human presence in North America (~13Ky). So it could not have affected "native" american.

Regarding the major volcanic eruptions, I can give you a likely scenario of what could have happened due to a large caldera explosion (even though implosion would be a better term).

- The area surroundind the caldera would become hell. Pyroclastic surges of all types would burn everything. Surrounding river valleys flooded by lahars while thick ash layers would bury topography.

- Major ashfalls woud bury vegetation on a large area, shape and distance of the ash plume (and ash layer thickness) depending on prevailing wind speed and direction. An area of hundreds of kilometres would be serioulsy affected.

-Ash particles would disperse through the upper atmosphere, reducing sunlight and temperatures. This could last for weeks in the areas surrounding the caldera, but inthe rest of the continent, this effect would be reduced. Beautiful sunsets would be seen due to reflection of sunlight in the upper atmosphere (remember Pinatubo).

- The ash would be loose on the ground. Rains would carry this material to rivers, stream watters would carry a large suspended particle yeld. The turbidity would increase and in many places stream depth would decrease. Part of the sediment load would reach the river deltas and thes seas.

-After a few decades, everithing would return to normality.

 

[jj]

Acording to the article, the youngest volcanic eruptions happened somewhere between 160Ky and 70Ky. This is quite older then the earliest possible credible evidences for human presence in North America (~13Ky). So it could not have affected "native" american.

Sorry, wasn't thinking only "modern man", but I should have said so.

Regarding the major volcanic eruptions, I can give you a likely scenario of what could have happened due to a large caldera explosion (even though implosion would be a better term).
...
-After a few decades, everithing would return to normality.

Seems mostly reasonable. Apparently, the Yellowstone eruptions put out a lot of ash, too, not just the usual pyroclastic flows, lahars, etc, and the ash can be found as a discrete layer in Ontario and to the Chicago area... What I don't know is how much effect this had on the river systems. That much ash will really muck up crops for a few years, too.

 

[jj]

-Ash particles would disperse through the upper atmosphere, reducing sunlight and temperatures. This could last for weeks in the areas surrounding the caldera, but inthe rest of the continent, this effect would be reduced. Beautiful sunsets would be seen due to reflection of sunlight in the upper atmosphere (remember Pinatubo).

- The ash would be loose on the ground. Rains would carry this material to rivers, stream watters would carry a large suspended particle yeld. The turbidity would increase and in many places stream depth would decrease. Part of the sediment load would reach the river deltas and thes seas.

-After a few decades, everithing would return to normality.

Oh, just had to point out that the release of ash from Yellowstone was about 2000 times that of St. Helens, for instance, it's perhaps the biggest actually detected volcanic activity on the planet. We're talking about 3 orders of magnitude, give or take, larger than Pinatubo, realize.

 

[Correa Neto]

More colors on the morning and afternoon!

BTW, JJ, sorry, again I seem not to be fully understanding you. You said you wasn´t thinking just interms of "modern man". You are as a matter of fact considering the entire paleoecosystem from North America or reffering to earlier hominids? If this is so, I must remind that there are no credible evidence for the presence of any species of the genus Homo in the Americas before 13Ky. Other species and the ancient varietites of Homo sapiens were "confined" to Africa, Asia and Europe.

Neutrino cannon- there are several reasons why the Permina extinction is not as well known as the K/T boundary. Among them,
(1) Its older. The older the geological record is, the harder it is to decypher.
(2) K/T boundary has the iridium marker. So far, nothing similar has been found (OK, I may not be fully updated on this issue).
(3) Dinsosaurs have more appeal then giant amphibians, trilobites and reptilian fauna that lived by then...

 

[jj]

More colors on the morning and afternoon!

And enough ash to kill crops, cover, and low-growing plants as far east as Ohio and Pennsylvania, more to the point.

BTW, JJ, sorry, again I seem not to be fully understanding you. You said you wasn´t thinking just interms of "modern man". You are as a matter of fact considering the entire paleoecosystem from North America or reffering to earlier hominids? If this is so, I must remind that there are no credible evidence for the presence of any species of the genus Homo in the Americas before 13Ky. Other species and the ancient varietites of Homo sapiens were "confined" to Africa, Asia and Europe.

Quite. The continued disruption of the landscape seems a likely candidate to me for why something analagous would not arise.