Per Stig Moller time confusion

[Josarhus]

I did a search on the forum, but couldn’t find any thing about this specific aspect of the Pentagon witnesses.

In a debate with a truther he claimed that April Gallop, Alberto Gonzales and the former Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller says that explosions went off at 9:32, but the official story states 9:37. To back his claim up he also said that several Pentagon watches stopped at 9:32.

I do not know that much about either April Gallop or Alberto Gonzales, but being a Dane I do know about Per Stig Møller. The truther claimed that he (Per Stig Møller) in an interview on 9/12 2001 said that he heard an explosion and looked out the window and saw the attack at 9:32, but the official story states 9:37.

The truther don’t understand any Danish, so I was of course interested in what his sources were and did some googling. First I looked at where the claim came from and found out that DNotice.org had rense.com as the source and rense.com had "The Pentagon Attack Papers" by Barbara Honegger as the source and "The Pentagon Attack Papers" had bombsinsidewtc.dk as the source and stated that it came from a morning interview done on 12. September by Danish Radio (DR).

It goes wrong from the beginning! The original from bombsinsideWTC:

On Sept. 11, the (now present) Danish Foreign Minister Mr. Per Stig Møller was in Washington, and was therefore interviewed by "Denmarks Radio" DR "P3" early in the morning at circa 7:30 on Sept.12. And he explained that he had seen a big cloud of "FIRE" and "SMOKE" from the Pentagon at circa. 9:32 (local time)
Mr. Per Stig Møller also explained in the Danish Radio, that he had said to his Friends after he saw the smoke ( I Quote ) :
"I think that there has been a Bomb detonated at the Pentagon !"

The version from Barbara Honegger:

Denmark’s soon-to-be Foreign Minister Per Stig Moller was in a building in Washington, D.C. on 9/11 from which he looked out, heard an explosion and saw the smoke first rise from the Pentagon. He immediately looked at his wrist watch, which read 9:32 am. He gave radio interviews in Denmark the next morning in which he stated that the Pentagon had been attacked at 9:32

Barbara Honegger clearly added a bit to the story, so now he hears the explosion, he looked at his watch and stated that the time was 9:32.

Then I found the audio from the original interview and found out that Per Stig Møller doesn’t mention seeing the attack or hearing any sound. He just looked out the window after he had finished a meeting and saw smoke and flames at the Pentagon.

Further more Per Stig Møller CLEARLY states that he thinks the time was around 9:32-9:34 based on when the meeting was supposed to end. The meeting was supposed to end at 9:30, but he didn’t look at his watch. In other words the time could very easily correspond with the official time of the crash.

To make it short, if anybody in the future claims that Per Stig Møller said that he heard an explosion and saw smoke and flames 5 minutes before the plane hit the Pentagon, tell them that the claim is based on an incorrect translation by the Dane Henrik Melvang and on deliberate distortions by Barbara Honegger.

Henrik Melvang is well known in Denmark as the foremost Danish member of the Apollo moon hoax movement. Apparently he also engages in 9/11 CT.

As I wrote I do not know that much about the April/Alberto 9:32/9:37 claims, so can anybody direct me to a tread on this forum or give some information here?

 

[BigAl]

I did a search on the forum, but couldn’t find any thing about this specific aspect of the Pentagon witnesses.

In a debate with a truther he claimed that April Gallop, Alberto Gonzales and the former Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller says that explosions went off at 9:32, but the official story states 9:37. To back his claim up he also said that several Pentagon watches stopped at 9:32.

What point is he trying to make? Tons of aircraft debris and body parts and DNA for all of the occupants that boarded flght 93 which took off earlier were found inside the Pentagon and identified. So was the flight recorders which had data for where the plane had been for the prior 24 hours. From the moment of teh crash and for days, the recovery was witnessed non-stop by hundreds of people.

 

[FineWine]

What point is he trying to make? Tons of aircraft debris and body parts and DNA for all of the occupants that boarded flght 93 which took off earlier were found inside the Pentagon and identified. So was the flight recorders which had data for where the plane had been for the prior 24 hours. From the moment of teh crash and for days, the recovery was witnessed non-stop by hundreds of people.

You mean Flight 77, Big Al. I know that you know, but when dealing with "truthers," you must remember that they are looking to pounce on every tongue-slip. After all, they don't have anything else.

 

[Josarhus]

What point is he trying to make? Tons of aircraft debris and body parts and DNA for all of the occupants that boarded flght 93 which took off earlier were found inside the Pentagon and identified. So was the flight recorders which had data for where the plane had been for the prior 24 hours. From the moment of teh crash and for days, the recovery was witnessed non-stop by hundreds of people.

Well it is a bit unclear, but it looks like that he is arguing that explosives went off 5 minutes before the plane hit, based on the stopped clocks at the Pentagon, April's also stopped clock a mistake made by Alberto Gonzales and one or to more witnesses who was inside the Pentagon and who noticed the time 9:32.

 

[Brainster]

Nice research on the Per Stig Moller claim. Gallop apparently made the claim in her lawsuit; see here:

They learned the second plane was off course and not responding a short time later. According to reports, United Flight 11 hit the WTC North Tower at 8:46 a.m. and Flight 175 hit the South Tower at 9:03. The Pentagon was hit at or about 9:32 a.m. — although the official version says 9:38 — and the fourth plane crashed in Pennsylvania shortly after 10:00 a.m. High performance jet fighter planes stationed at various bases around the northeastern U.S. — tasked to intercept and deal with unidentified or straying aircraft entering or flying in U.S. airspace under NORAD district command, or otherwise at NORAD’s disposal — were available at a moment's notice. None were notified, however, or sent to the right place, until it was too late; at least for the first three planes.

I assume she's going with Honegger's "evidence" which apparently consists of two clocks from the Pentagon that stopped at that time. Honegger pins the crazy needle; she might just be the nuttiest person in the 9-11 "Truth" Movement. Her argument, boiled down to its essence, is that all of the clocks in the Pentagon have precisely the right time, every time, that none of them could possibly have been 6 minutes off. If there is some evidence for this, I would like to see it; I know my dad has one of those watches that automatically synchronizes with an atomic clock via some satellite, but barring that I don't believe that there's some squadron of clock-checkers marching around the Pentagon making sure nobody's clock is off.

I don't know about the Gonzales claim; the Terror Timeline doesn't show him doing much on the day of 9-11 other than meeting with Cheney.

 

[MikeW]

This all originated with Barbara Honneger a few years ago. Read her "Pentagon Papers" if you're interested.

Good work, though, Josarhus. Do you have a link to the original audio? Not that I understand any Danish either, but it'll be good to have in the thread as a reference.

 

[Josarhus]

Nice research on the Per Stig Moller claim. Gallop apparently made the claim in her lawsuit; see here:



I assume she's going with Honegger's "evidence" which apparently consists of two clocks from the Pentagon that stopped at that time. Honegger pins the crazy needle; she might just be the nuttiest person in the 9-11 "Truth" Movement. Her argument, boiled down to its essence, is that all of the clocks in the Pentagon have precisely the right time, every time, that none of them could possibly have been 6 minutes off. If there is some evidence for this, I would like to see it; I know my dad has one of those watches that automatically synchronizes with an atomic clock via some satellite, but barring that I don't believe that there's some squadron of clock-checkers marching around the Pentagon making sure nobody's clock is off.

I don't know about the Gonzales claim; the Terror Timeline doesn't show him doing much on the day of 9-11 other than meeting with Cheney.

Apparently the Alberto Gonzales claim also comes from Honegger who says that he on August 27 2002 gave an address at the Naval Postgraduate School in which he stated that "the Pentagon was attacked at 9:32."

Honegger works at the school and claims to have a tape of the address.

I asked the truther if he thinks that DoD is lying about everything and he said that he thinks so, then I asked why he then thinks that DoD clocks would tell the truth. No clear answer.

 

[Josarhus]

This all originated with Barbara Honneger a few years ago. Read her "Pentagon Papers" if you're interested.

Good work, though, Josarhus. Do you have a link to the original audio? Not that I understand any Danish either, but it'll be good to have in the thread as a reference.

It was actually a bit hard to find, but of all places a Danish truther blog had a video, where the radio interview is played at 2:20.

http://blog.tv2.dk/steppo/entry121396.html

And you can find his word in writing here both Danish and English:

http://www.thewebfairy.com/911/terrorize/pentagon3/pentagon3.htm

The Per Stig Møller story is confirmed by Holger K. Nielsen another member of the Danish parliament who attended the same meeting in Washington. Per Stig is conservative (right wing) Holger K. is a socialist (almost as far to the left as you can get, but we have worse)

 

[beachnut]

The only way to use time is when everyone is using the eact same time. DoD clocks in the offices are set by people to the time. So there is no time HACK; they may not be accurate.

From the FDR on flight 77 the impact time would be about 37:50. So the idiots who say there were explosions at 32 past the hour have the wrong time set and they will be working 5 minutes past the work day, but gee whiz they showed up to work 5 minutes early.

I worked for the USAF and I could care less what time the wall clock showed save the fact you would set it to be close; if time was important for a function you would always have the correct time on your watch! So the clock on the office walls in the Pentagon are not correct but are office clocks placed on the wall by people who set them and they are only as accurate as the setting.

If someone starts talking about time on 911 they are nuts if they try to base some moronic conclusion on the time and not explain the error model for the clocks. It would not be unusual for an office clock to be off 5 minutes for many reasons. I can name a few.

DoD clocks? They are our office clock set by us. What a dumb thing to bring up. Pure stupid.

 

[T.A.M.]

1. They could be wrong on the times (asking them to recall a year or more later, even seconds later, is not reliable for such a thing).
2. The clocks could have (like they are in ordinary life) been out of sync.

Next topic.

TAM

 

[Mr. Skinny]

The only way to use time is when everyone is using the eact same time. DoD clocks in the offices are set by people to the time. So there is no time HACK; they may not be accurate.

From the FDR on flight 77 the impact time would be about 37:50. So the idiots who say there were explosions at 32 past the hour have the wrong time set and they will be working 5 minutes past the work day, but gee whiz they showed up to work 5 minutes early.

I worked for the USAF and I could care less what time the wall clock showed save the fact you would set it to be close; if time was important for a function you would always have the correct time on your watch! So the clock on the office walls in the Pentagon are not correct but are office clocks placed on the wall by people who set them and they are only as accurate as the setting.

If someone starts talking about time on 911 they are nuts if they try to base some moronic conclusion on the time and not explain the error model for the clocks. It would not be unusual for an office clock to be off 5 minutes for many reasons. I can name a few.

DoD clocks? They are our office clock set by us. What a dumb thing to bring up. Pure stupid.

Agree 100%. I work for the USAF as well, and I imagine I could easily find two clocks in my branch alone (about 20-25 offices) that would vary by as much as 10 minutes.

Like Beachnut said, the time on a given clock is only as accurate as the person that sets it.

 

[tsig]

Agree 100%. I work for the USAF as well, and I imagine I could easily find two clocks in my branch alone (about 20-25 offices) that would vary by as much as 10 minutes.

Like Beachnut said, the time on a given clock is only as accurate as the person that sets it.

I worked for a University that had a time clock system an 800 kilocycle signal was transmitted over the electrical system every six hours. This engaged a mechanical lever that made the hands read the correct time. It was obsolete then (20 years ago) because the clocks cost 120$ each.

 

[BigAl]

I worked for a University that had a time clock system an 800 kilocycle signal was transmitted over the electrical system every six hours. This engaged a mechanical lever that made the hands read the correct time. It was obsolete then (20 years ago) because the clocks cost 120$ each.

A powerline based system has been in use for decades and it wouldn't surprise me if the clocks the Pentagon bought in the 40s were synchronized and they don't wear out. I see no reason to turn the system off. Just changing daylight savings in a big building is a pain.

IBM made one of the systems. Here's a picture of a 1930s master clock.

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/attic3/attic3_118.html

 

[Gravy]

A powerline based system has been in use for decades and it wouldn't surprise me if the clocks the Pentagon bought in the 40s were synchronized and they don't wear out. I see no reason to turn the system off. Just changing daylight savings in a big building is a pain.

IBM made one of the systems. Here's a picture of a 1930s master clock.

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/attic3/attic3_118.html

There was no such system in the Pentagon impact area, which, as you'll recall, was gutted for renovation. Honegger simply omits mentioning photos of the clocks in the impact areas that stopped at 9:36, 9:37, and 9:38, photos of which can be found online. These are ordinary wall clocks. Honegger also omits, um, the necessary testimony of the thousands of people who would have noticed the enormous explosion nearly six minutes before the actual impact. Radar data, FDR data, video data, radio calls, and calls for aid, establish within seconds or fractions of a second the time of the impact. Nothing to see here but unadulterated lunacy.

 

[tsig]

A powerline based system has been in use for decades and it wouldn't surprise me if the clocks the Pentagon bought in the 40s were synchronized and they don't wear out. I see no reason to turn the system off. Just changing daylight savings in a big building is a pain.

IBM made one of the systems. Here's a picture of a 1930s master clock.

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/attic3/attic3_118.html

Everything wears out. We had to turn the system off when we found out that the 800 kc signal interfered with the sound lab.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I did a search on the forum, but couldn’t find any thing about this specific aspect of the Pentagon witnesses.
...
Further more Per Stig Møller CLEARLY states that he thinks the time was around 9:32-9:34 based on when the meeting was supposed to end. The meeting was supposed to end at 9:30, but he didn’t look at his watch. In other words the time could very easily correspond with the official time of the crash.

Thanks for both being Danish and for taking the time to look into this, and share. I had done a study of the 9:32 claims before and had guessed that Honegger merely elaborated Stig Moller's wristwatch part. She is an insanely bad researcher - she cites two other watch-said-9:32-ish stories, one again just stated with no supporting quote, the other from April Gallop. Honegger told a radio show that Gallop swears the Pentagon explosion started in her computer, when she hit the power button, in an elaborate set-up. 9:32 is when the bombs went off before the impact of an A-3 Skywarrior at 9:37, in Barb's evidence-optional world.

As I wrote I do not know that much about the April/Alberto 9:32/9:37 claims, so can anybody direct me to a tread on this forum or give some information here?

A couple of related posts of mine are at this link.
http://frustratingfraud.blogspot.com/2007/12/pentagon-attack-timeline-questions.html
My list of nine 9:32 supports is based on Honegger, Mark Gaffney, and "Terral" considered together.

4) Al Gonzales Before becoming Attorney General, White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales gave a lecture at Honegger’s Naval Postgraduate School in which, as Honegger noted, “Gonzales explicitly and clearly states that “The Pentagon was attacked at 9:32”. [9] It’s matter of public record and probably true that he indeed said this, but I don't see why it necessarily means anything. He may have just read an erred report – like the FAA’s cited above – while doing his background research for the speech. Or if there were an official effort to seed this idea, as suggested by Honegger's Andrews interview, there's no good reason to rule out Gonzales deciding to affirm it almost to Honegger's very face for her later use. For the moment I'll stick to the more innocent explanation.

6) April Gallop’s watch: A third wristwatch recollection related by Honegger Is that of April Gallop, an “Army employee with a Top Secret clearance,” had stopped by her office with her newborn son Elisha when her section exploded. Honegger’s point in including this curious witness was that “Ms. Gallop still has the watch she was wearing that morning, which stopped shortly after 9:30.” [13]

April certainly went through hell that day, with her baby, and suffered serious injuries to her right leg I believe, so it’s possible her watch was mechanically stopped by something that hit her arm as well. And if so, we have another stopped clock showing a time closer to 9:32 than 9:38. Given what Gallop went through, it may seem cold to cast aspersions, but of all the points on this list, she is in my opinion the most compromised by mis/disinformation concerns. Among the oddities of her account(s), she later told Jim Marrs “I know what a bomb sounds and acts like, especially the aftermath, and it sounded and acted like a bomb. There was no plane or plane parts inside the building, and no smell of jet fuel […] I figure the plane story is there to brainwash people.” [14] She’s also helped promote the PentaCon, and has described climbing out through the entry hole, which she has elsewhere incorrectly verified as “perfectly round” and “didn't appear to be big enough for the 757.” [15]

I wish I could tell you your findings here would be very important to helping thousands of deluded people, but alas this pathetic idiocy is fading and the few left are beyond help. For those recoverable few, however, one more "clue" down the toilet.

 

[Caustic Logic]

As for the clocks Russell Pickering swore he experimented and found gravity was the culprit. Both of these 9:30-32 clocks fell off the wall at 9:38 (set however close each one) and hit the ground, with gravity plus no more battery pulling them back a few minutes.

 

[funk de fino]

I guess the gate security cameras did not capture that earlier explosion then?

 

[chillzero]

Honegger also omits, um, the necessary testimony of the thousands of people who would have noticed the enormous explosion nearly six minutes before the actual impact.

This would seem to be a glaring ommission - on par with those people who didn't see that whole 'flyover' plane nonsense.

 

[Josarhus]

There was no such system in the Pentagon impact area, which, as you'll recall, was gutted for renovation. Honegger simply omits mentioning photos of the clocks in the impact areas that stopped at 9:36, 9:37, and 9:38, photos of which can be found online. These are ordinary wall clocks. Honegger also omits, um, the necessary testimony of the thousands of people who would have noticed the enormous explosion nearly six minutes before the actual impact. Radar data, FDR data, video data, radio calls, and calls for aid, establish within seconds or fractions of a second the time of the impact. Nothing to see here but unadulterated lunacy.

I have been searching for pictures of the Pentagon clocks, but besides the two stopped around 9:32, I have only found one picture showing a clock stopped at 9:36.