pay by the mile road tax

[username]

This article got me thinking about the dark side of technology, it just makes it easier for us to be taxed.

This scheme is to use satelite tracking to charge a fee per mile of roadway traveled in Britain.

Being an American I don't see the attraction of such a system myself as it not only involves taxes, but also tracking everyone's whereabouts.

Let's here the arguments for such a system.

 

[Jon_in_london]

This scheme is to use satelite tracking to charge a fee per mile of roadway traveled in Britain.

Being an American I don't see the attraction of such a system myself as it not only involves taxes, but also tracking everyone's whereabouts.

Let's here the arguments for such a system.

The arguments for? Well it takes into account the "supply and demand" for roads. This means that people driving on heavily used roads will pay more while people who drive on rural sideroads are going to pay less. One might argue that those who use busy roads at the moment are in fact being subsidised by those who use deserted country lanes. If this system replaces fuel tax- all the better. It will destroy the market for "red diesel"- a major source of income for paramilitaries in Northern Ireland.

There are some issues, I think, with the tracking system and the big brother issue.

Otherwise my only other concern is that the charges are going to become exorbitant. The government already sees motorists as cash cows ripe for the milking. I accpet that congestion is a huge problem and that it needs to be reduced. However, taxing motorists off the roads is not the answer. Providing an alternative- a realistic alternative- ie public transport that is fast, frequenct, reliable, punctual, clean and uncrowded- IS the answer.

Unfortunately, this government's record with transport is completely abysmal. They fling billions of taxpayers £ into the pockets of private companies who are making the horses arse out of our railways. Meanwhile fares are astronomical and bus fares in outer London have gone from 70p to 120p in the past 3 years!. Fix public transport and the problem of congestion will fix itself!

 

[Kerberos]

About the Big Brother I'd think it's be possible only to store the total amount owed, but delete the specific information about where people had driven. Of course that might be problematic in relation to people who thought that they’d been overcharged.

 

[Ed]

This is purported to be an alternate way to charge so that roads can be maintained. It seems to me that there are vast stretches of road thru the heartland that are not traveled very much at all.

Looks to me like this could turn out to be incremental.

 

[richardm]

This is purported to be an alternate way to charge so that roads can be maintained. It seems to me that there are vast stretches of road thru the heartland that are not traveled very much at all.

That shouldn't matter, in theory, because the money all goes into one central pot that gets shared out amongst the councils.

In reality I'm not convinced that all the money that should go into this pot at the moment gets there, but never mind.

I don't really mind this idea too much, so long as the fees are not extortionate. I quite like the idea of the scaled charges as well (especially since I live in a rural area which, with a bit of luck, will be in the 2p band )

One bonus would be that car theft would be virtually eliminated. No need to install your own expensive tracking device, every car has a government approved one as standard.

 

[H3LL]

Re: Re: pay by the mile road tax

..... Providing an alternative- a realistic alternative- ie public transport that is fast, frequenct, reliable, punctual, clean and uncrowded- IS the answer.

FYU. I have reasonably fast, very frequent (one a minute during rush hour), reliable, punctual, cleanish but rush-hour crowded public transport.

Most are fixed price (very cheap), regardless of whether you want one stop or terminus to terminus across the (big) city.

I'm not aware of public subsidy and all operators on a route purchase the right to use that route and pay additional fees per day per vehicle.

I love driving with a passion and would travel 60-80,000 miles pa as part of my previous work. Currently I have no car and have not needed one.

Why?

2-5 minutes walk from my house there is:

Fixed Fare
Bus (Three types - $0.10)
Double-decker bus ($0.20)
Mini-bus (two types - $0.20)
Coach ($0.20)
Electric Tram ($0.10)


Pay Per Mile
Taxi car
Taxi Bubble car (Disabled Drivers only)
Motor Tricycle
Motorcycle (For the insanely suicidal...Great fun)

Long Distance (Not so close)
4 classes on express Trains plus local chug-along.
High speed tram.
International (limited) Airport
Ferry.
Cruise ship.

The trains are always on time in my experience. Mrs. H3LL just returned from a 30 hour jouney by sleeper train (comfortable, but not luxury class) and you could set your watch by departure and arrival times.

I can't justify the expense of a car and the freedom of movement you get with a private car is not really an issue. If I did all the travelling I could do by private car instead of taxi it would be about double the cost. Combining all the options available makes extensive travel very cheap.

Expressways are usually toll-roads.

I'm constantly amazed by what is achieved here, by mainly private operators (long distance usually government), and how so many are moved so well 99% of the time.

From memory I heard that in the 10 day period during a national holiday the dealt with 3,000,000,000 (yes, billion) train journeys. Amazing.

I heard a rumour that local companies are looking with interest at UK public transport.

When I hear "it can't be done", I'm now a little sceptical.


Edit to change FYU to FYI. Oops!

 

[H3LL]

That shouldn't matter, in theory, because the money all goes into one central pot that gets shared out amongst the councils.

Is it the case that petrol duty, car licence(?) and road tax(?) does not get used for transport infrastructure but joins the treasury money lake for general distibution?

Have they said where the money from the pay-per-mile scheme will go?

 

[Ed]

That shouldn't matter, in theory, because the money all goes into one central pot that gets shared out amongst the councils.

In reality I'm not convinced that all the money that should go into this pot at the moment gets there, but never mind.

I don't really mind this idea too much, so long as the fees are not extortionate. I quite like the idea of the scaled charges as well (especially since I live in a rural area which, with a bit of luck, will be in the 2p band )

One bonus would be that car theft would be virtually eliminated. No need to install your own expensive tracking device, every car has a government approved one as standard.

What I meant to say is that they would have two spigots leading to the pot. Boy, that is a lousey analogy!

Try again: They could have multiple taxation tools that could both be incrementally raised. There, that's better.

 

[Ed]

Have they said where the money from the pay-per-mile scheme will go?

Republican National Committee

 

[Khonshu]

The problem is that the taxes that pay for road construction and maintenance are gasoline taxes. In the US, 12 cents for every gallon goes to the FHWA, and your state adds an amount (the lowest is 7 cents per gallon, iirc) that can either go to the state DOT or the general fund (check your state laws). The taxes are considerably higher in Europe.

There are more and more vehicles on the roads, creating more wear & tear on the transportation infrastructure, but getting better mileage than ever before. Net effect is that the money being contributed by the gas taxes are going down, while the wear & tear is going up. A per mile tax is one solution - I would only venture support if they'd remove the per gallon taxes as they initiate it, or offer tax credits or something for gas taxes paid.

 

[WildCat]

Re: Re: pay by the mile road tax

The arguments for? Well it takes into account the "supply and demand" for roads. This means that people driving on heavily used roads will pay more while people who drive on rural sideroads are going to pay less. One might argue that those who use busy roads at the moment are in fact being subsidised by those who use deserted country lanes.

Actually, those using busy roads are subsidizing those who use the less-traveled roads. The cars using the less-busy roads are not generating nearly the taxes necessary to maintain those roads, while heavily traveled roads generate a surplus. The argument you put forth seems to imply that there needs to be some sort of incentive to put people on less traveled roads, but this is flawed. People travel the roads that lead to where they're going, after all. They're not going to hop on the road to nowhere just because it's cheaper.

 

[WildCat]

The problem is that the taxes that pay for road construction and maintenance are gasoline taxes. In the US, 12 cents for every gallon goes to the FHWA, and your state adds an amount (the lowest is 7 cents per gallon, iirc) that can either go to the state DOT or the general fund (check your state laws). The taxes are considerably higher in Europe.

There are more and more vehicles on the roads, creating more wear & tear on the transportation infrastructure, but getting better mileage than ever before. Net effect is that the money being contributed by the gas taxes are going down, while the wear & tear is going up. A per mile tax is one solution - I would only venture support if they'd remove the per gallon taxes as they initiate it, or offer tax credits or something for gas taxes paid.

Sensible states charge tax by the gallon, but here in the People's Republic of Illinois we get charged as a percentage of the price of a gallon of gas. Gas prices go up, more taxes collected. Gas prices fall, less taxes collected. Sheer lunacy when the volatile nature of gas prices are considered, and nearly impossible to get an accurate projection of gas tax revenues far in advance.

As you say, charge-per-mile makes some sense, especially as hybrid and other cars come into widespread use, but then they want to double-dip w/ the gas tax also.

 

[Khonshu]

Well, here in Ga., you do take a triple tax hit on fuel - 12 cents per gallon for the feds, 7 cents for the state DOT (dedicated to road construction & maintenance by the state constitution) plus a hidden sales tax (4-8 per cent, depending on the county you're buying fuel in) that's included on the per gallon cost you see at the pump. I doubt we're the only state that does it that way...

 

[Kopji]

Heh heh heh.

I suppose that gasoline taxes could be eliminated and replaced by a 'zone use' tax. Instead of watching each road, the country could be divided regionally into red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet zones. The zones would be assigned according to how difficult it was to maintain roads in that county.

As an example, traveling to Yellowstone would incur a higher tax, and traveling to New Jersey a lower one. (This could also be a driving force for revitalizing inner city areas.)

I'd go out and buy stock in Radio Shack early, to profit on the cheap satellite 'jam-it-off' kits that will certainly be popular.

I'm a little curious how they plan to track non 'peak time' costs like clearing snow off of roads.
















There is no great genius without a mixture of madness.
[Latin: Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementia.] - Aristotle

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: pay by the mile road tax

Actually, those using busy roads are subsidizing those who use the less-traveled roads. The cars using the less-busy roads are not generating nearly the taxes necessary to maintain those roads, while heavily traveled roads generate a surplus. The argument you put forth seems to imply that there needs to be some sort of incentive to put people on less traveled roads, but this is flawed. People travel the roads that lead to where they're going, after all. They're not going to hop on the road to nowhere just because it's cheaper.

Actually the problem is a different one form what Jon says. The problem is that while extra cars on less busy roads don't incur an extra cost to the other people driving the road, extra cars on busy roads do, because they create lines. Thus traffic on busy roads generate externalities, and road-pricing can compensate for such externalities and encourage people to use public transportation, travels more people per car, take the Bicycle or other options that doesn't create the same externalities.

 

[WildCat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: pay by the mile road tax

Actually the problem is a different one form what Jon says. The problem is that while extra cars on less busy roads don't incur an extra cost to the other people driving the road, extra cars on busy roads do, because they create lines. Thus traffic on busy roads generate externalities, and road-pricing can compensate for such externalities and encourage people to use public transportation, travels more people per car, take the Bicycle or other options that doesn't create the same externalities.

But all those people traveling on busy roads are generating gobs of tax dollars from their labor when traveling to jobs and their purcheses if traveling to shop. If all costs are factored into the equation, surely all the benefits should be factored in as well.

Public transportation can only be an option if the trains or buses actually run when people need them to, go the places they need to go, and isn't too inconvenient.

With the irregular hours most people work these days, I doubt that carpooling will ever catch on. People might go to work at the same time, but they sure don't come home at the same time!

Britain's (and most of Europe's) congestion problems really stem from the fact that they have 21st century traffic traveling on road grids designed for the 17th century.

There is a possible solution to the traffic congestion problem that is far simpler to implement and has the potential to greatly increase public transportation use: Tax the living hell out of parking in the congested areas. $3 (I don't have the time to figure out how to type a euro or pound sign on my computer, sorry!) an hour during week days. Company's w/ private lots are still subject to the tax (no more parking perks allowed), residents of the area would be exempt. No Big Brother monitoring, no higher gas tax for people who aren't part of the problem, hopefully less congestion.

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pay by the mile road tax

But all those people traveling on busy roads are generating gobs of tax dollars from their labor when traveling to jobs and their purcheses if traveling to shop. If all costs are factored into the equation, surely all the benefits should be factored in as well.

Sure but the same benefits could be achieved if they used public transportation.

Public transportation can only be an option if the trains or buses actually run when people need them to, go the places they need to go, and isn't too inconvenient.

And road-pricing allows each individual to figure out for himself, whether he thinks the money saved from road pricing, is worth the extra inconvenience that taking public transportation would incur for him.

With the irregular hours most people work these days, I doubt that carpooling will ever catch on. People might go to work at the same time, but they sure don't come home at the same time!

Probably true, though I suppose you could car pool the way out and take public transportation home. Still probably that would only work for a small portion of the people.

There is a possible solution to the traffic congestion problem that is far simpler to implement and has the potential to greatly increase public transportation use: Tax the living hell out of parking in the congested areas. $3 (I don't have the time to figure out how to type a euro or pound sign on my computer, sorry!) an hour during week days. Company's w/ private lots are still subject to the tax (no more parking perks allowed), residents of the area would be exempt. No Big Brother monitoring, no higher gas tax for people who aren't part of the problem, hopefully less congestion.

I see a couple of problems with that. First of all that would punish the people who parked for a long time, not the people who drove a lot, and would thus create the wrong incentives. Also road pricing is more flexile in that you could tax people more doing rush hour and less at other times.

 

[WildCat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pay by the mile road tax

I see a couple of problems with that. First of all that would punish the people who parked for a long time, not the people who drove a lot, and would thus create the wrong incentives. Also road pricing is more flexile in that you could tax people more doing rush hour and less at other times.

But those are exactly the people you want to "punish"! A person traveling to shop will want (and probably need) a car to haul the stuff home in. And they would have more incentive to shop (and, of course, this means more tax revenue as well as jobs) if parking was more available because commuters would be pushed towards public transportation. And it's still commuters responsible for most congestion, unless there's no such thing as a "rush hour" over there.

It's very easy to change parking rates at the whim of the operator. Here in Chicago there's typically one rate for monthly parkers, another for "early birds", a different rate for special event parking, and another rate for daily and hourly parking. It would be quite simple to jack up the rates for 9-5 parking on weekdays.

 

[richardm]

Is it the case that petrol duty, car licence(?) and road tax(?) does not get used for transport infrastructure but joins the treasury money lake for general distibution?

Have they said where the money from the pay-per-mile scheme will go?

I'm pretty certain that the moolah does not get ring-fenced for spending on roads and transport, although that was originally the purpose. The car tax was originally called "The Road Fund" to reflect that.

The biggest problem I've heard mentioned with this scheme - apart from the "Government tracking where I go!" worry - is that if you have a spiffy fuel-efficient vegetable-oil powered 0.75 litre eco-machine, under the proposals so far mooted you'd pay the same as someone with a 5 litre twin-turbo BMW M5. I assume that there would be a sliding scale of payments...

 

[richardm]

A per mile tax is one solution - I would only venture support if they'd remove the per gallon taxes as they initiate it, or offer tax credits or something for gas taxes paid.

That's the plan, at the moment. Serious efforts to get this implemented seem to be some time off. This government has a habit of making proposals in public like this to see what people think of them (something I quite approve of, in fact).