PAUL CAREY, Irish Withead

[Ashles]

That's a new method of avoiding taking the challenge.

Firstly you worry that the sceptics aren't being scientifically stringent enough (!), then you say the weekend is a 'no-go' after a time for testing has been offered, then you threaten to get all litigious because the deadline has passed.

So just to recap for newcomers:
Paul Carey: I can send telepathic messages to another person. I want to be tested
Irish Sceptics: Okay then how about Saturday 27th? You can even bring your own receiver. How's that for fair?
PC: No you have to provide the receiver
IS: But that will give you a classic 'out' if you fail!
PC: You provide the receiver. The weekend's a no-go
IS: The offer stands an is fair and scientifically valid. And the weekened is a no-go? What? For a million dollars?
Deadline passes
IS: Well that's that then
PC: I want to be tested! Why have you pulled out! I have lawyers!
IS & JREF:

 

[DaChew]

Irish Wit? Seems like there's a 'T' missing and maybe one too many 'I's with one too few 'A's.

 

[Hastur]

More like this Ashles:

Paul Carey: I can send telepathic messages to another person. I want to be tested NOW! NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!
Irish Sceptics: Okay then how about Saturday 27th? You can even bring your own receiver. How's that for fair?
PC: No! You have to provide the receiver! I refuse to do it on the 27th for my own reasons!
IS: The offer stands an is fair and scientifically valid. And the weekened is a no-go? What? For a million dollars? You until such and such a time to change your mind. We're busy people.
Deadline passes
IS: Well that's that then
PC: I want to be tested! Why have you pulled out! I have lawyers!
IS & JREF fantasy: Bite me! You were screaming for a test, we offered and you refused!
IS & JREF: [/B]

 

[princhester]

Why the insistence on doing the test near someone's place of residence? Why not just do it wherever?

 

[Hastur]

Part of it is convenience for the subjects. Not everyone who applies has the cash to fly to Florida. Plus, it gives the woos one less excuse about not taking Randi's challenge.

 

[princhester]

Sorry Hastur but that doesn't make sense in this case: the applicant themselves wanted the testing done in Holland (so refusing was of itself risking providing the applicant with an excuse).

 

[TheBoyPaj]

Yeah. What if Holland was "convenient" for this guy?

Seems like an odd demand by the JREF.

 

[Hastur]

Sorry Hastur but that doesn't make sense in this case: the applicant themselves wanted the testing done in Holland (so refusing was of itself risking providing the applicant with an excuse).

But could Kramer find a skeptics group in Holland willing to test Carey? We don't know. There is also the possibility that the applicant will be expecting compensation of fares from JREF. Also, which is easier to set up: a local group who can make local (at least more local) calls to the applicant and can receive mail in a timely fashion or a foreign group who may have a language barrier to overcome, would have to make international calls and send by international mail (which takes a while) to communicate with the applicant.
There is also the condition of "no vanities." If a person can perform a paranormal feat, he can perform it in his living room as well as he can perform it in Timbuktu.

 

[princhester]

Hastur your post is of just the type that gives people like Peter Morris a toehold in reality. At the time Kramer insisted that the testing take place in Ireland, he couldn't find anyone there to test. I am certain there are skeptic groups in Holland (not that Kramer even attempted to find any before making his peremptory ruling).

As to payment of fares, how about some friggin' innocent till proven guilty? If he asked for payment of fares, perhaps that would have been the time to say: "go to hell". If you are going to apply that sort of reasoning, why not just decide a priori that any applicant is going to make an unreasonable demand before they even apply, and refuse to offer the prize at all?

As to language, have you ever met an educated Dutch person who couldn't speak English? It'd be a first.

As to communications, hell I think you'd find the communications between Limerick and Holland as between there and Dublin. Or near as dammit.

And if that's what the applicant wants, why not just give it to them, instead of putting yourself in the position of having to dream up silly excuses (like someone I could mention).

Yes, I agree about the "no vanities" thing, but Kramer didn't even ask if there was a sensible reason why it had to be in Holland. He just nixed the idea out of hand, as far as we can tell.

 

[Hastur]

Hastur your post is of just the type that gives people like Peter Morris a toehold in reality.

Far from. But if I am wrong in some way, how about suggesting an alternative than blasting me.

At the time Kramer insisted that the testing take place in Ireland, he couldn't find anyone there to test.

Try again, princhester. No one was RESPONDING to Kramer and Carey was getting impatient.

As to payment of fares, how about some friggin' innocent till proven guilty? If he asked for payment of fares, perhaps that would have been the time to say: "go to hell". If you are going to apply that sort of reasoning, why not just decide a priori that any applicant is going to make an unreasonable demand before they even apply, and refuse to offer the prize at all?

1. This is not a court of law. There is no "innocent until proven guilty" here. There is no way out of here, when you come in, you're in for good and all that.
2. I am not speaking of making an assumption that all applicants will have an unreasonable demand, but construing the rather outlandish or unusual demands to be an attempt to cheat. It's called strict scrutiny.

As to language, have you ever met an educated Dutch person who couldn't speak English? It'd be a first.

I have met Japanese and Arab people who could speak English, but could not speak and comprehend at a native rate, nor were they familiar with various English idioms. I never said Dutch people could not speak English, but the odds are its their second language and they are not as fluent as a native.

As to communications, hell I think you'd find the communications between Limerick and Holland as between there and Dublin. Or near as dammit.

1. Please clarify this statement.
2. Do you have the phone rates so we can compare?

And if that's what the applicant wants, why not just give it to them, instead of putting yourself in the position of having to dream up silly excuses (like someone I could mention).

And if JREF acceeded to every demand made, the money would have been won a long time ago.

Yes, I agree about the "no vanities" thing, but Kramer didn't even ask if there was a sensible reason why it had to be in Holland. He just nixed the idea out of hand, as far as we can tell.

It is not Kramer's duty to inquire as to each and every demand made by the applicants. If it is so darn important to the applicants, they can explain why they need this demand fulfilled.

 

[Ashles]

Just 2 small points:

I never said Dutch people could not speak English, but the odds are its their second language and they are not as fluent as a native.

I live in England and have met many Dutch people (here and in Holland), and couldn't really say that I have met one who's English was anything less than excellent. They might not be able to pass as a native speaker, but pretty much mainly from accent, and, occasionally unusual (but perfectly clear) sentence structures.
They'd certainly be good enough to conduct any tests, probably, in terms of English-speaking (outside the UK) I'd say maybe the best in Europe.

As to communications, hell I think you'd find the communications between Limerick and Holland as between there and Dublin. Or near as dammit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Please clarify this statement.
2. Do you have the phone rates so we can compare?

I think Princhester meant communications as in travel connections etc.

And phone, bus, rail or air there's not much in it. Especially with Ryan air.

But that's just my 2 pence worth.

 

[KRAMER]

Excuse me?

Yes, I agree about the "no vanities" thing, but Kramer didn't even ask if there was a sensible reason why it had to be in Holland. He just nixed the idea out of hand, as far as we can tell.

How do you know the full extent of what I asked, or didn't ask?

Are you psychic?

I did not "nix the idea out of hand, as far as we can tell."

This is the Royal We, I presume?

If I copied and printed every email in the Paul Carey file, I'd be here on weekends for the next year working solely on that.

I asked. He responded by stating that he "wanted to plan a trip there", or some such nonsense. Part of my job is to try to be sure that I don't waste the investigators time and good will. I used what I consider proper judgement in refusing this vanity.

So, he was going to go to Holland for a week, during which he would have demanded to be tested, at HIS convenience, or offer us the same threats and ultimatums that he did in Ireland. Great.

And if JREF actually HAD tried to accomodate such a whim, I think the events that transpired in Ireland speaks volumes about what we would most likely have encountered with him in Holland.

Perhaps Paul Carey had as little intention of going to Holland as he did in actually being tested. We had no plans to "Wait and See", and the tone of his emails left little confusion about his, well, his nature. He was rude and impatient pretty much right from the start.

I think we did the right thing.

Applicants are tested at a location convenient to them in order to avoid a myriad of potential problems. That's our policy, and it's not for the benefit of the JREF. It's a courtesy to the applicant.

What if a test was arranged 500 miles from the applicant's home, and then one of the investigators (or even the applicant himself) became ill and could not participate? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to re-schedule the test if its' original location was convenient to the applicant's place of residence? Testing far from home risks the possibility that re-scheduling would be impossible. Not good, and a complete waste of time for all persons (and organizations) involved.

Caveat: If an applicant whose home is in Wyoming is vacationing in Florida (or anywhere else that we can arrange for a test without too much difficulty) and wants to be tested there, we'll do our best to accomodate them. But this applicant had NO specific plans to be in Holland. It was definitely just a whim.

Additionally, while we are aware of a Skeptics Group in Groningen, Holland, we have no actual contact with them.

Mike Reen of Irish Skeptics, on the other hand, is in close contact with the JREF, and hosted Randi's recent lecture stop in Dublin. There was no reason to go elsewhere. Qualified investigators were VERY close to this applicant's home.

And based upon what actually took place with this applicant, and the threats we continue to receive from him, might I humbly inquire as to precisely what you are complaining about?

Did the JREF do someone wrong, in your view? Please advise.

 

[KRAMER]

WRONG-

At the time Kramer insisted that the testing take place in Ireland, he couldn't find anyone there to test.

WRONG again, Princhester.

The fact is that there was (at the time I insisted the test be done in Ireland) a Skeptics Group even closer to this applicant than Irish Skeptics in Dublin. I wrote to them, and on the very same day, wrote to Paul Carey to give him their contact data.

It was not until a few weeks went by with no response that further investigation uncovered the fact that this group had recently disbanded.

Hence the initiation of correspondence with Irish Skeptics in Dublin.

I suppose I could have waited for a response from the first group I contacted BEFORE forwarding their contact data to Carey, but I try to expedite matters as best as possible in an effort to see applicants tested in a timely fashion.

Any more complaints?

 

[CptColumbo]

Re: WRONG-

Any more complaints? [/B]

My feet hurt.

 

[princhester]

Re: Excuse me?

Sorry to revive this but I've had no time over Xmas/New Year till now.

Kramer, thanks for the explanation.

You ask whether JREF did anything wrong. No, I don't think so, based on your subsequent explanation.

But your original writing up of the matter left a big unanswered question, because you give no real explanation of why you wouldn't test in Holland.

Saying that for an applicant's convenience you will refuse to test them where they want to be tested does not, I hope you can see, make immediate sense.

It makes sense now that you have given an explanation, but only now.

Kramer, you asked: "How do you know the full extent of what I asked, or didn't ask?"

The answer of course is that I didn't because you didn't tell, which left your decision to refuse to test in Holland when you gave no good reason and it was what the applicant wanted, surrounded by an air of unexplained peremtoriness.

I didn't say, absolutely, that you had no explanation, I said that you nixed "the idea out of hand, as far as we [ie your readers] can tell."

WRONG again, Princhester.

The fact is that there was (at the time I insisted the test be done in Ireland) a Skeptics Group even closer to this applicant than Irish Skeptics in Dublin. I wrote to them, and on the very same day, wrote to Paul Carey to give him their contact data.

It was not until a few weeks went by with no response that further investigation uncovered the fact that this group had recently disbanded.

[My emphasis]

Like I said, at the time you nixed the idea you couldn't find anyone there to test, albeit that you knew of a group who you thought would be able to test. Which is, as you have now said, precisely the same situation as in Holland, where as you say you knew of a skeptics group, albeit you had not been in contact.

So in short, this situation left the reader with no way of knowing of a good reason for nixing the Holland idea.

Kramer I am trying to be constructive. My understanding is that the reason JREF decided to publish descriptions of various applications in order to allow people to see the difficulties you face, and to show how careful and considerate and reasonable you try to be.

My experience is that there are any number of detractors who say that the Challenge is a sham and that JREF imposes endless and unreasonable demands on applicants to make it impossible for them to win.

The whole idea of publishing details of applications is going to backfire on JREF unless you are very careful that when you describe instances of where you refuse to test something, or refuse to test in a way that the applicant wants etc, you give a very solid explanation of why you have done that. Because without that, you will unintentionally make JREF appear to fit the picture woo woo's try to paint of it.

 

[Achau Nguyen]

Hi, my name is my log in name. Im not here to tell you guys anything about my powers, or what I claim I can do and so on. Im not here to tell you about my testing or anything in that matter, its just that I was reading some of the statements some of the forum members posted towards Kramer and sorta got offended by it. Just to letchu guys know as an applicant for the challenge, I'd like to say Kramer has done pretty much everything and anything I'd request and asked for to get me tested. To be honest, I'd sent in my first application for the challenge back in 02 and not until Kramer came aboard the JREF staff, I'd had no help at all. To make things short, don't judge and question Kramers actions on the applicants, unless you've been or are an applicant for the challenge yourself, you'll know all the things he goes through just to get you tested.


btw: I wont be posting anything else or answering anything until after my pre testing to letchu guys know if it was a fail/pass.

 

[Ravenwood]

Glad to see you on board Achau!
I also have been keeping quiet pending the outcome of the test protocols...

 

[KRAMER]

FYI

Kramer I am trying to be constructive. My understanding is that the reason JREF decided to publish descriptions of various applications in order to allow people to see the difficulties you face, and to show how careful and considerate and reasonable you try to be.

I understand your concerns and I agree with your comments regarding the possibility that what I am working to provide here in the forum can backfire on the JREF unless our position and reasons for rejecting specific claims are explained in the most thorough manner possible. Of course. I strive for that.

However, your assumptions (as per your quote, above) regarding JREF's reasons for adding the Challenge Section to the forum is incorrect.

During the numerous meetings that took place in 2004 at the JREF in which the idea of a Challenge Section in the forum was discussed, not once did anyone mention that one of the goals would be to show people the difficulties we face, or how considerate or careful we try to be.

The goal was much simpler than that; to provide the public with access to the Challenge applications, protocol negotiations, and the full details of what (if any) testing may follow.

Never once did anyone at our staff meetings say anything even remotely like, "Cool. This will show the world how hard we work", or, "...how fair we are."

However, as I recollect, someone DID say something like,
"Well, people will finally see the kind of loonies we deal with, generally."

What we are also showing is how a good number of our applicants are NOT "loonies", but are reasonable, courteous people who are simply deluded into believing that they are special, or whose superstitions did not fade away as they passed through childhood. I need not go into the psychology of belief here. You all know what I'm referring to.

JREF's sole goal in initiating the Challenge Section is to inform those who are interested about the paranormal claims we receive. Offering a defense against potential woo-woos never entered into the matter. It wasn't even mentioned. We try not to concern ourselves too much with that particular inevitability.

So, although it's obvious that a clear detailing of JREF's reasoning behind the rejection of claims (and an applicant's protocol proposals) certainly possesses the possibility of keeping the woo-woos relatively quiet, it was not our goal. Believe it or not, the addition of the Challenge section was entirely altruistic.

Forum members have been asking for access to Challenge applications for years. I'm doing my best to provide this.
It's for the benefit of those who wish to see what kind of applications we receive, and NOT for the benefit (or the defense) of the JREF.

That having been said, I can hardly deny that in the publishing of the applications herein, the JREF can certainly benefit, at least as regards how we are perceived by the public.

 

[Gr8wight]

Upon reading the correspondence Kramer provided in the other thread, it is clear to me that Paul Carey never intended to be tested. He initiated this process for the express purpose of making it as difficult as possible for the JREF, and ultimately blaming them for the fact that a test never occurred, thereby adding fuel to the fire of accusation that the JREF never intends to pay out. My guess is that Kramer comes up against this daily, and his actions at all times are designed to ensure that if an applicant pulls out, it is clearly not due to any lack of effort on the part of the JREF.