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Pascal's Wager and Elzoob!

c4ts

Philosopher
Joined
Jul 17, 2002
Messages
8,420
Either their is a God, or there isn't, and the wager assumes a lot about this God should you wager for it, whatever that may mean. Let us assume that the table runs something like this:

Wager for God - God exists: Gain all; God does not exist: status quo
Wager against God - God exists: misery; God does not exist: status quo

Clearly, the wager does not consider the possibility of a completely random and incomprehensible God, yet either a completely random and incomprehensible God exists, or it doesn't, so the chances are 50/50. Let as look at the adjusted chart:

Wager for God - God exists: ???: status quo
Wager against God - God exists: ???; God does not exist: status quo.

Since Pascal even admits that nothing can be completely known about God, it makes no sense that believing in the specific Christian version should have anything to do with what "wagering" is. If it is what God wants, then what if God wants you to disbelieve in his existence because he's beyond logic? What if he wants you to inhale Tang until your lungs turn orange? What if God wants you to train a bunch of monkeys to shoot lazer beams out of a giant model of George Foreman made entirely out of toothpicks? Your chances of success are a whole lot less than 50/50 if you haven't done any of those things!

Based on his arguments, Pascal says to believe is to wager for God. However, adhering to one set of random crap your entire life is going to signifigantly reduce your chances, especially when so many sets already exists. Why not believe an infinite amount of random crap in hopes that one will be right? You've got to cover all your bases! After all, if flipping an infinite number of coins will guarantee at least one will turn up heads, and comitting the gambler's fallacy will have multiple coin flips screwing with your chances of success, why not buy a gigantic cake and hurl it out the car window while shouting "I'm a lizard! Don't kill Leno you can no!" ? After all, belief is doing! Mighty Elzoob's ways are unknown to us, so we must try everything possible and impossible! You might get alphabet soup every day but you never know what the decoder ring is going to look like.

So yeah, go to church and all that. Go to church dressed like Michael Jackson collided with Kaga Takeshi and paint yourself turquoise in case Elzoob likes that color, then drink 20 martinis and have sex with linguini. And don't even actually go, send a body double and have him or her say you've changed your name to "Fackford E. Chimberwozzle LXVII" and you live on the moon. It might look crazy, but the math works out okay. After all, if the church is wrong but the color turquoise is right, you've got your bases covered! And what if the God doesn't like it when you do these things? Do a bunch of other random things and it will all balance out in the end. And if there is no God then status quo, whatever that's supposed to mean. It's simple probability.

What if Elzoob does not exist, but some other God does? Well, if that God happens to be fond of fashion so bad it makes your mortal eyeballs fall out of your skull and burst open with maggots, you've got your bases covered! Or perhaps it's the God Who Favors Long and Silly Names... you get the picture. And if it's the Aztec Snaky God of Human Sacrifice? There's only so much you can do at once, but you can always sacrifice a whole lot of people the next service.

Yes, you can do a great deal of things by following Elzoob's incomprehensible word. Just remember the number 1 rule: you can justify anything if you jump the conclusion that you're right and everyone else is wrong, and ignore other arguments. Now you know the secret to success!
 
c4ts said:

Either their is a God, or there isn't ...
Yep.

... and the wager assumes a lot about this God should you wager for it, whatever that may mean. Let us assume that the table runs something like this:
Let us "not" assume anything ... except that we maintain some sort of morality and charity towards others.
 
Lothian said:
Iacchus,

I quite agree with your statement as written, if not as you understand it.
Well, I personally don't think God is looking for suckups. So in that sense I kind of think it defeats the wager. If, in fact that's what the wager requires you to do.
 
Iacchus said:
Well, I personally don't think God is looking for suckups. So in that sense I kind of think it defeats the wager. If, in fact that's what the wager requires you to do.
I was referring to your statement (which I quoted) not the original one.

I am smugly pleased to be proved right as well. I agreed that we should not assume anything knowing quite well that you assume there is a god with no proof whatsoever.
 
Lothian said:
I was referring to your statement (which I quoted) not the original one.

I am smugly pleased to be proved right as well. I agreed that we should not assume anything knowing quite well that you assume there is a god with no proof whatsoever.
And why do you assume that this is so? Can you be so sure, I mean assume that God doesn't exist? :D
 
Iacchus said:
And why do you assume that this is so? Can you be so sure, I mean assume that God doesn't exist? :D

And what makes you assume you have the faintest clue about whether it does or doesn't?
 
cyborg said:
And what makes you assume you have the faintest clue about whether it does or doesn't?
Yep, either God exists or He doesn't exist ... :D
 
Iacchus said:
Yep, either God exists or He doesn't exist ... :D

Either your brain exists or it doesn't. Evidence is for the later.
 
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not a jealous God. (So there's no point in believing in him)

Ditto the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and the Great Taco in the Sky
 
FireGarden said:
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not a jealous God. (So there's no point in believing in him)

Ditto the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and the Great Taco in the Sky

Sounds like someone is defining god(s)...
 
c4ts said:
However, adhering to one set of random crap your entire life is going to signifigantly reduce your chances, especially when so many sets already exists. Why not believe an infinite amount of random crap in hopes that one will be right? You've got to cover all your bases!

A good point. For a Christian god, it's even worse than that. Christianity itself states that most people even who believe in God are going to Hell. If you haven't confessed your sins, or maybe if you haven't fallen to your knees and had a sudden rush of endorphins while pondering John 3:16, who knows, you will be going to Hell.
 
Since the number of possible deities is infinite, I would have to do infinitely many things in order to please whichever one may really exist. Yet any of these things has a 50-50 chance of pissing off that deity. So I think the best course of action is to do nothing to try to please any deity, because by doing so there is an equal chance that I am sealing my own doom. I shall just continue my usual pastime of letting giant purple monkeys fly out of my ass.
 
shemp said:
Since the number of possible deities is infinite, I would have to do infinitely many things in order to please whichever one may really exist. Yet any of these things has a 50-50 chance of pissing off that deity. So I think the best course of action is to do nothing to try to please any deity, because by doing so there is an equal chance that I am sealing my own doom. I shall just continue my usual pastime of letting giant purple monkeys fly out of my ass.

But Shemp, you can never win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket! And why buy one when you can buy a billion? If the return is infinite, it doesn't matter how much you spend because you will come out ahead if you win.
 
shemp said:
What if the return is NOT infinite? Suppose the afterlife is just another 80 years of this? 80 more years of giant purple monkeys flying out of my ass? I THINK NOT!!!

All possible integers between 0 and 80 are infinite, therefore 80 = infinite reward, so you have nothing to worry about. What those infinite 80 years will be like is anybody's guess, but if you sit around doing nothing, your infinity COULD be an unimaginably horrible nasty sweaty sumo pit full of whale-like human beings who will press you into jerky, a place so terrible that words cannot describe the stench, and you're not reducing your chances of ending up there, so it's only the logical conclusion that your infinity of giant purple monkeys flying out your ass is far superior.
 

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