Palestinian TV Sermons

[Skeptic]

Palestinian Television carried a live noon sermon on Friday during which Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis called Jews a "spreading cancer" and repeated the canard that Jews exaggerated the actual numbers killed by the Nazis during the World War II Nazi Holocaust.

The Sheik, speaking in a Gaza Mosque in the presence of uniformed PA police said in part:

"The Jews are the cancer spreading all over the world...the Jews are a virus like AIDS hitting human kind...Jews are responsible for all wars and conflicts...." He went on to say, "Do not ask what Germany did to the Jews but what the Jews did to Germany. Through the Zionist movement the Jews incited many nations to start economic war against Germany and boycotted it...True, the Germans killed and burnt Jews but the Jews exaggerate the numbers to gain propaganda advantages and sympathy...

"Even in the days of Arafat, we did not see such a blatant antisemitic and Holocaust-denying canard broadcast on Palestinian TV, whose current chief was personally appointed by Abu Mazen," charged Rabbi Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, Dean and Associate Dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a leading Jewish Human Rights Group.

Oh yes, I'm sure that Abu Mazen, whose Ph.D. thesis claims the holocaust never happened as part fo a larger thesis about how the zionists are the world's worst nighmare, will fire this guy immediatelly.

Not.

People, let's not mince words: this is nothing but genocidal hatered and an incitement for another holocaust. It is no different, in tone or in intent, from anything the nazis said in the 30s. And before you shout "Godwin" at me, remember that a). that's no argument, and b). that the similarities here are not superficial, but very essential.

The Palestinian authority is nothing but the nazi ideology resurrected.

 

[The Fool]

The Palestinian authority is nothing but the nazi ideology resurrected.

And palestinians see Israel as nothing but the european colonialist ideology resurrected. Obviously these perceptions will need to be overcome before there is any chance of peace. Are you up to the task?

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Palestinian TV Sermons

Originally posted by The Fool
Obviously these perceptions will need to be overcome before there is any chance of peace. Are you up to the task?

Fool.

Do you really think the only problem here is 'perception'?

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: Palestinian TV Sermons

Fool.

Do you really think the only problem here is 'perception'?

Its one of a number of barriers to peace but it is one of the main ones...Other barriers are, of course, people like Shiekh Mudairis and "skeptic".

If you would like to view a good outline of these perceptions and the ongoing problem of people like Mudairi and "skeptic" who perpetuate them watch the lecture at this site
http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/lectures/
by Amos Oz entitled "Israeleace and War"

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Its one of a number of barriers to peace but it is one of the main ones...Other barriers are, of course, people like Shiekh Mudairis and "skeptic".

I can think of several important differences between Skeptic and Shiekh Mudairis:

1) Shiekh Mudairis has the backing and support of the Palestinian government. We know this because those are governmetn funded state broadcasts he's spewing his hate on.

2) Shiekh Mudairis has a reputation for this sort of thing, so when the head of Palestinian TV booked him, he knew what he was getting. This was no random outburst from some guy on the street, this man was chosen because of his hateful rhetoric.

And the most important difference between Skeptic and Sheik Mudairis:

3) Skeptic is correct in saying this is no different, in tone or in intent, from anything the nazis said in the 30s, while Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis is not correct in his many libels against the Jews.

Originally posted by The Fool
If you would like to view a good outline of these perceptions and the ongoing problem of people like Mudairi and "skeptic" who perpetuate them watch the lecture at this site
http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/lectures/
by Amos Oz entitled "Israeleace and War"

Sorry, my audio isn't working else I'd spend the hour and some-odd minutes listening to it. I have, however, read some Amos Oz and plan to read some more. Did you know he's a Zionist?


Edit to add: Skeptic, you forgot your link:

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/s/content.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=253162&ct=863509

 

[The Fool]

Did you know he's a Zionist?

yes. so what?


Did you know he doesn't regard Palestinians as the reincarnation of his historic oppressors? So he's always going to be a minimum of one step closer to relevance than Pipes or those that support his views such as "skeptic".

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Did you know he doesn't regard Palestinians as the reincarnation of his historic oppressors? So he's always going to be a minimum of one step closer to relevance than Pipes or those that support his views such as "skeptic".

I think it's possible to distinguish between "historic oppressors" and those with aspirations to exceed them.

There are two sides here that have an obligation to make peace here. You can't fault Israelis for (correctly) interpreting this Palestinian-Authority sponsored hate speech as Nazism reincarnated without also faulting the Palestinian for deliberately making it that way.

If I were to dress in the robes of the Ku Klux Klan and burn a cross on the front lawn of a black family, would you really tell them their problem was "perception" of my actions? Would you chide them for seeing in me the "reincarnation of their historic oppressors?"

Of course you wouldn't, you would react with natural horror at the very real threat of real racism. That you can't seem to do that when it's Arabs and Jews demonstrates a huge fault in your perceptions.

You're defending racism, plain and simple.

 

[The Fool]

You're defending racism, plain and simple.

sigh...here we go again?

The guy is a racist, an extremist and an allround God pestering Idiot....The perception that is a major block in the peace process is that his views are mainstream palestinian views....Just the same as Israelis must recoil in horror when they see his rants Palestinians must recall in horror when they read the sort of stuff that "Skeptic" comes out with... If they believe it is mainstream Israeli opinion then the effect is the same... Would you be interested in attempting to work towards a peacefull coexistance with Israel if your perception, fed to you by Mudairas and people like Pipes and his followers, that Israelis and thier US supporters viewed you as uncivilised savages who are beyond redemption. Why would you bother trying?

Some people who point the finger of scorn at these knobheads need to look in the mirror too.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
The guy is a racist, an extremist and an allround God pestering Idiot....The perception that is a major block in the peace process is that his views are mainstream palestinian views...

Oh, so that's the source of your misunderstanding.

It's not that his views are mainstream Palestinian-Arab views, that's besides the point. It's that being on state-run Palestinian television indicates that the Abbas run Palestinian-Authority may be less than sincere about ending incitement and working towards peace.

Oh yeah, claiming that seeing this sort of hate speech for what it is, a reincarnation of Nazism, is a "perceptual problem" on the part of the Israelis is a defense of racism. The Palestinian Authority has an obligation to put a stop to it, no excuses. What someone says provately is different, but this is state run television.

 

[The Fool]

Oh, so that's the source of your misunderstanding.

baiting ignored

It's not that his views are mainstream Palestinian-Arab views, that's besides the point. It's that being on state-run Palestinian television indicates that the Abbas run Palestinian-Authority may be less than sincere about ending incitement and working towards peace.

Are you familiar with the ongoing changes in Palestinian television programing. I think Abbas has been a very positive force for change in many areas including television. Part of the problem is the idea that the PA and Abbas is all powerfull and what he says goes without exception. Things are not that simple. I believe he is sincerely doing his best to end this conflict among 2 sides both chock full of people who have other goals.

Oh yeah, claiming that seeing this sort of hate speech for what it is, a reincarnation of Nazism, is a "perceptual problem" on the part of the Israelis is a defense of racism.

And this is a misrepresentation of my views. I clearly stated and will state it again that the "perceptual problem" is the perception that this persons racist rants are representative of mainstream Palestinian opinion.

The Palestinian Authority has an obligation to put a stop to it, no excuses. What someone says provately is different, but this is state run television.
yes it does. Reality sometimes doesn't match the good intentions does it... I guess thay have not jumped high enough for the carrot yet but I can only ask again...are you aware of the changes in Palestinian television since the death Arafat...are you aware of its ongoing change?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
And this is a misrepresentation of my views. I clearly stated and will state it again that the "perceptual problem" is the perception that this persons racist rants are representative of mainstream Palestinian opinion.

Skeptic very clearly said "Palestinian Authority," not mainstream Palestinian opinion.

Originally posted by The Fool
yes it does. Reality sometimes doesn't match the good intentions does it... I guess thay have not jumped high enough for the carrot yet but I can only ask again...are you aware of the changes in Palestinian television since the death Arafat...are you aware of its ongoing change?

If you are aware of good news in regard to changes in Palestinian-Arab television, it would be welcome. You could have saves a lot of time by posting it to begin with rather than your usual sniping ad hominem attacks on Skeptic.

 

[zenith-nadir]

...are you aware of the changes in Palestinian television since the death Arafat...are you aware of its ongoing change?

As Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis statements clearly prove it is you the fool who is not aware of the "changes" in Palestinian television. Or maybe you were refering to this "change"? ...preachers on the payroll of the Palestinian Authority have included incitement against the United States.

Just admit it the fool. There are people out there that are insane with hate, nuts infact. Unfortuantely some of them are on the Palestinian payroll and appear on Palestinian state-run television every friday at sermon time. While they do not represent the Palestinian people as a whole their rhetoric has a serious and d-e-t-r-i-m-e-n-t-a-l effect. It speads hatred, blood libels and lies as well as it does a great disservice to the Palestinians.

 

[The Fool]

Skeptic very clearly said "Palestinian Authority," not mainstream Palestinian opinion.

ok lets simply forget his clearly stated views that the entire palestinian people are full of genocidal hate for the Jews. I am simply challanging that claim....constantly. Because things like that need constant challenging. If he doesn't want people to take those as his views he should stop saying it.

If you are aware of good news in regard to changes in Palestinian-Arab television, it would be welcome. You could have saves a lot of time by posting it to begin with rather than your usual sniping ad hominem attacks on Skeptic.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...id06.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/02/06/ixworld.html

 

[webfusion]

Let's imagine for a moment

I want to offer the benefit of the doubt to The Fool, if I may be so brash. He is indicating that perceptions are important, and that Abbas is going ahead with some reforms on as wide a scale as he deems sensible, under the circumstances (especially with Hamas breathing down his neck). I have no problem with that assertation.
The "feel good" programs of cute bunnies and nature's waterfalls with MidEastern music playing in the background and those old Egytian romantic films are fine. I can only imagine the Palestinians sitting there watching them (not) and getting all warm and fuzzy.

I perceive the Palestinians to be lacking in leadership which offers them much in the way of an alternative to continuation of their jihad. I anticipate the meetings with President Bush in the next week to be illustrative that my perception is absolutely correct ---- Abbas is not serious about negotiating in good faith. We are about to witness maximalist protocols put forward by PM Abbas the likes of which have not been seen since the Michael Anda debacle here at JREF!

BTW, Israel allows those broadcasts, and the reason is because freedom of speech continues to be a paramount moral emphasis in that country. Also, it must be recalled that surrounding nations also have television/radio programming and print media which reach the Palestinians (such as Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and even Iran, and even publications and sermons originating from mosques in the USA).
Many Islamic clerics and their followers are certainly offering their fair share of speechs and articles (and even editorial cartoons) which are reminiscent of the best and brightest that Goebbels offered.

In this bubbling cauldron of vile brew which can clearly be claimed is the fundamentalist-Islamic perception of Israel (and by extension, the Jews), it would be illogical for the Palestinian imams and sheikhs to step forward and become "holier than the Pope" (if you pardon the mixed metaphor).

 

[The Fool]

As Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis statements clearly prove it is you the fool who is not aware of the "changes" in Palestinian television. Or maybe you were refering to this "change"? ...preachers on the payroll of the Palestinian Authority have included incitement against the United States.

Just admit it the fool. There are people out there that are insane with hate, nuts infact. Unfortuantely some of them are on the Palestinian payroll and appear on Palestinian state-run television every friday at sermon time. While they do not represent the Palestinian people as a whole their rhetoric has a serious and d-e-t-r-i-m-e-n-t-a-l effect. It speads hatred, blood libels and lies as well as it does a great disservice to the Palestinians.

From the link I posted in the previous post..

Israeli officials have long denounced the television station, accusing it of inciting violence. One cabinet minister described the changes as an "important step" in fostering a mood of co-operation.

Palestinians have welcomed them, with reservations. "People salute Abu Mazen's understanding of the need to make the broadcasting moderate, because the old style under Arafat was not only dull but it brought incitement and hatred " said Ibrahim Wahbeh, a Bethlehem resident.

"But if the positive mood is to be built up, we need to feel real improvements to our lives, and soon. This is something that television should follow closely."

Times are changing ZN I sincerely hope you allow your outlook to keep up.

 

[Skeptic]

What I should really do is take, say, ten long quotes from Goebbles or Hitler about the jews in the 1930s, and ten long quotes from PA preachers and officials about israel, jews, or "zionists" today, and post them in random order.

After removing identifying marks (e.g., references to israel or "our Fuhrer", etc.) and, possibly, slightly altering the language to remove telltale Arabic-vs.-Germans colloquial expressions, I would give it to "The Fool" & co. as a test.

If they can figure out who said what better than 50% of the time, I'll eat my hat. "Perception", my ass--it's the exact same damn thing.

The real reason I won't do this, is that such tests are meaningless today due to the ability to google quotes and find the sources.

 

[The Fool]

"Perception", my ass--it's the exact same damn thing.

I really don't mind correcting this every time but the problem in the "perception" is the "perception" that this is mainstream Palestinian opinion. You misrepresent my words....have another read. Nothing to do with how close these rants are to nazi rants....I fully accept they are cut from the same cloth.

Watch the lecture by Amos oz I linked to in this thread and you may gain a better understanding of the underlying problems caused by the reinforcing of the perception in many Israelis that Palestinians are the reincarnation of thier long list of historic persecutors and the perception in many Palestinians that Israelis are the reincarnation of a long line of thier colonial persecutors. People who feed these perceptions are part of the problem, not part of any solution.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
ok lets simply forget his clearly stated views that the entire palestinian people are full of genocidal hate for the Jews. I am simply challanging that claim....constantly. Because things like that need constant challenging. If he doesn't want people to take those as his views he should stop saying it.

Right. Sometimes he says "Palestinians will never..." or "Palestinians are..." in the exact same way you say "Israel will never..." or "Isreal does not want..." Your double standard on this is laughable and your continually bringing it up is nothing more than petty sniping.

 

[CBL4]

The Fool,

Your link about changing PA television is good news. If it is accurate and if it lasts, then there is some hope for peace.

The flip side is what was going on for the last 10 years?
1) "Eulogies to suicide bombers"
2) "sycophantic, round-the-clock coverage of his schedule that was the norm under the former Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat",
3) "Attacks on Israeli targets were applauded ",
4 "special songs composed for the station in praise of fallen ``martyrs''
I am glad to see that you are now admitting that Arafat encourage hatred and violence and that he used the media a his personal PR tool. It will make further discussion easier.

Assuming Abbas is sincere, he has Arafat legacy to overcome. This makes his job extremely difficult.

CBL

 

[Mycroft]

If Abbas has made changes to Palestinian Television he deserves props for it. However, this article either demonstrates there is still a long way to go or that there has been some reversal in the policy.

"Even in the days of Arafat, we did not see such a blatant antisemitic and Holocaust-denying canard broadcast on Palestinian TV, whose current chief was personally appointed by Abu Mazen,"

It would be great if this could be demonstrated to be a one time aberration, but I think a skeptic would demand some evidence before dismissing it as trivial.