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Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend - Part 2

Thanks for the link.

I see they're also appealing the verdict on the ammunition found in Oscar's safe.


Yes, as indeed they should. This was, on the face of it, an even more dreadful (and inexplicable) error in law by Masipa, and one which should in itself raise huge questions as to her competency to serve as a criminal judge.

Essentially, Masipa ruled that there was no (required) animus on the part of Pistorius, when in fact the required animus was entirely proven by the fact that Pistorius - by his own admission! - knew exactly what it was that he was storing in his safe ("for his father" - well, yeah, right, but that's not strictly important here......). The only scenario here in which absence of animus could be shown would be if (for example) Pistorius could successfully claim that his father had given him a sealed package that he (his father) told him contained (say) jewellery (but which actually contained the ammunition in question), and asked him to store it in his safe for a while.

It's astonishing and extremely worrying that Masipa ruled an absence of animus on this charge, which in turn led directly to the acquittal. I think this should be a slam-dunk reversal and conviction on the charge. It's also my firm view that the prosecution is totally correct in its grounds for appeal on the murder charge, and that Masipa erred very badly in law here also. But I'd concede that the murder verdict appeal is a slightly less black-and-white issue - though I would expect a retrial on the murder charge.
 
Pistorius didn't even seem to have a defence against the ammo charge.
His father didn't testify and he didn't offer any other evidence to support his claims, but even if he had, he should still have been convicted.
Really bizarre decision.
 
Yes, as indeed they should. This was, on the face of it, an even more dreadful (and inexplicable) error in law by Masipa, and one which should in itself raise huge questions as to her competency to serve as a criminal judge.

Essentially, Masipa ruled that there was no (required) animus on the part of Pistorius, when in fact the required animus was entirely proven by the fact that Pistorius - by his own admission! - knew exactly what it was that he was storing in his safe ("for his father" - well, yeah, right, but that's not strictly important here......). The only scenario here in which absence of animus could be shown would be if (for example) Pistorius could successfully claim that his father had given him a sealed package that he (his father) told him contained (say) jewellery (but which actually contained the ammunition in question), and asked him to store it in his safe for a while.

It's astonishing and extremely worrying that Masipa ruled an absence of animus on this charge, which in turn led directly to the acquittal. I think this should be a slam-dunk reversal and conviction on the charge. It's also my firm view that the prosecution is totally correct in its grounds for appeal on the murder charge, and that Masipa erred very badly in law here also. But I'd concede that the murder verdict appeal is a slightly less black-and-white issue - though I would expect a retrial on the murder charge.

I see no reason at all to challenge Masipa. It was necessary to be satisfied that Oscar's immediate account was consistent, and when prosecution failed to do so Masipa made the precisely correct call. All other testimony about gun and ammunition misuse becomes irrelevant.
 
I see no reason at all to challenge Masipa. It was necessary to be satisfied that Oscar's immediate account was consistent, and when prosecution failed to do so Masipa made the precisely correct call. All other testimony about gun and ammunition misuse becomes irrelevant.

Why does it become irrelevant?
Pistorius was in possession of ammunition that was illegal for him to have.
That's still a crime, whether he killed anyone or not.
 
Why does it become irrelevant?
Pistorius was in possession of ammunition that was illegal for him to have.
That's still a crime, whether he killed anyone or not.
The charge of murder is very serious, whereas the other charges are more of the misdemeanour variety, offences often comitted but unexposed. This happens all the time, where previous misdemeanours are dragged forward to prejudice the jury against the defendant. This happened to Amanda Knox, who also did not murder.
All gun owners will at some time or other be guilty of misconduct, but not be called to account.
 
Oscar intended to kill someone when he fired 4 rounds through a closed door. The ammo he used to kill his girlfriend was illegal. This was no "accident".
 
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Oscar intended to kill someone when he fired 4 rounds through a closed door. The ammo he used to kill his girlfriend was illegal. This was no "accident".
Good point in that context. I should have paid attention to the direct link between the ammunition possession offence and the death.
 
The charge of murder is very serious, whereas the other charges are more of the misdemeanour variety, offences often comitted but unexposed. This happens all the time, where previous misdemeanours are dragged forward to prejudice the jury against the defendant. This happened to Amanda Knox, who also did not murder.
All gun owners will at some time or other be guilty of misconduct, but not be called to account.

He committed an offence by being in possession of ammunition which he wasn't licensed to own.
Regardless of other offences he may have committed, I fail to see why he wouldn't be convicted for that one.

Could you please explain why convicting him for this offence would've been wrong, barring the fact that you don't think that is was very serious?
This is the .38 ammo which he claimed was his father's and not the hollow points used to kill Reeva Steenkamp, by the way.
 
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He committed an offence by being in possession of ammunition which he wasn't licensed to own.
Regardless of other offences he may have committed, I fail to see why he wouldn't be convicted for that one.

Could you please explain why convicting him for this offence would've been wrong, barring the fact that you don't think that is was very serious?
This is the .38 ammo which he claimed was his father's and not the hollow points used to kill Reeva Steenkamp, by the way.
I thought I just retracted in my previous post. I ate humble pie. Not tasty but good medicine.
My interest in the case is simply because I believed Oscar's account from day one. I regard motive as paramount, and when due process failed to demonstrate his account was wrong, I automatically question whether he is in danger of being a repeat offender, and I don't see a snowball's chance in hell of this, so punishment is purely designed to deter others from engaging in cavalier behaviour, rather than to "reform" Oscar.
Masipa had to incarcerate for the lynch mob, but absolutely no fiscal or moral benefit is achieved.
 
I thought I just retracted in my previous post. I ate humble pie. Not tasty but good medicine.

Your previous post retracted the claim about his use of hollow point ammunition, but he was also charged for possessing a completely different set of ammo, which he didn't and indeed couldn't use.

My interest in the case is simply because I believed Oscar's account from day one. I regard motive as paramount, and when due process failed to demonstrate his account was wrong, I automatically question whether he is in danger of being a repeat offender, and I don't see a snowball's chance in hell of this, so punishment is purely designed to deter others from engaging in cavalier behaviour, rather than to "reform" Oscar.
Masipa had to incarcerate for the lynch mob, but absolutely no fiscal or moral benefit is achieved.

I didn't and still don't believe his account and feel that he still should've been jailed, even if it were entirely true.
His actions were reckless and stupid, which appears to be exactly how he's acted with firearms since he decided to arm himself.

This was a man surrounded by armed guards in a walled off complex, who had a male live-in housekeeper and who was armed.
He had no reason to approach a room that he thought contained intruders and even less reason to fire repeatedly through a door into a small cubicle.
His claims of being in fear simply don't make sense when compared to his actions.
 
His actions were reckless and stupid, which appears to be exactly how he's acted with firearms since he decided to arm himself.
This was a man surrounded by armed guards in a walled off complex, who had a male live-in housekeeper and who was armed.
He had no reason to approach a room that he thought contained intruders and even less reason to fire repeatedly through a door into a small cubicle.
His claims of being in fear simply don't make sense when compared to his actions.

Even if you accept Oscars story, he had a clear obligation to be sure of his target. While the prosecution failed to prove he knew it was her, I find his story about crawling on his stumps in total darkness toward what he claimed was danger, instead of staying where he could protect his girlfriend, to be absurd.
 
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Even if you accept Oscars story, he had a clear obligation to be sure of his target. While the prosecution failed to prove he knew it was her, I find his story about crawling on his stumps in total darkness toward what he claimed was danger, instead of staying where he could protect his girlfriend, to be absurd.

My position as well.
 
My position as well.
Not my position.
I have repeatedly said there is no motive.
It is theater of the absurd to suggest a man resolves a domestic dispute by killing his paramour in cold blood.
Lionking, get with the plot.
I have catalogued all the ridiculous cases one by one, but all I get from you is a furtherance of unbelievable crimes and scenarios.
I expect better of an an australasian.
Lindy Chamberlain was a normal mother whose beloved baby was taken by a native australian dog.
 
Not my position.
I have repeatedly said there is no motive.
It is theater of the absurd to suggest a man resolves a domestic dispute by killing his paramour in cold blood.
Lionking, get with the plot.
I have catalogued all the ridiculous cases one by one, but all I get from you is a furtherance of unbelievable crimes and scenarios.
I expect better of an an australasian.
Lindy Chamberlain was a normal mother whose beloved baby was taken by a native australian dog.

I have a different opinion, shared by many. Stop these personal and off topic attacks.
 
Are you saying this doesn't happen?
Yes, but become a judge to prove the opposite, I find it incomprehensible that people obey the call of authority to agree with a prosecution case that is a travesty here, just as I find it incomprehensible to agree with prosecuting Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, Susan Mellon, Sabrina Misseri, Cosima Misseri, Teina Pora, Shrien Dewani.

All the above are completely uninvolved in the crimes they have done jail time for.

Admittedly Pistorius is a careless but regretful member of the human race. He is doing time for his huge error.
 
Yes, but become a judge to prove the opposite, I find it incomprehensible that people obey the call of authority to agree with a prosecution case that is a travesty here, just as I find it incomprehensible to agree with prosecuting Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, Susan Mellon, Sabrina Misseri, Cosima Misseri, Teina Pora, Shrien Dewani.

All the above are completely uninvolved in the crimes they have done jail time for.

Admittedly Pistorius is a careless but regretful member of the human race. He is doing time for his huge error.


I don't understand the answer, but thanks.
 

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