Osama Tape, Who does it help Bush or Kerry?

[imagineNoReligion]

So far, I've watched a couple of "pundits" on CNN state that this helps Bush.

What are your thoughts?

 

[toddjh]

So far, I've watched a couple of "pundits" on CNN state that this helps Bush.

What are your thoughts?

I find it interesting that bin Laden's phrasing goes out of its way to stay neutral in the election. Apart from that, I have no idea.

Jeremy

 

[Batman Jr.]

It will hopefully be a wake-up call to those who have forgotten that Al-Qaeda and not Iraq was our primary terrorist threat. As to what really will result of it, however, I couldn't be certain.

 

[shecky]

Re: Re: Osama Tape, Who does it help Bush or Kerry?

I find it interesting that bin Laden's phrasing goes out of its way to stay neutral in the election. Apart from that, I have no idea.

It is interesting that it wasn't much of a polarizing rant. It seems Osama put some effort into insuring his video was Fair and Balanced.

 

[DavidJames]

I can't see how this would help Bush. Here is the guy fingered as the reason for 9/11. After Bush is telling us how he's the only guy who can defeat the terrorists. The guy Bush wanted dead or alive, now shows up 3 years later, very much alive. Yeah, makes me want to vote for Bush

 

[Psi Baba]

Re: Re: Re: Osama Tape, Who does it help Bush or Kerry?

It is interesting that it wasn't much of a polarizing rant. It seems Osama put some effort into insuring his video was Fair and Balanced.

Now we know who really runs Fox News!

The video is clearly designed to help Bush, partly due to its timing which seems to be carefully calculated, and probably not just by Bin Laden, but by Bush as well. If Bin Laden really wanted Bush out of office, why would he do something that might help him win the election. Ergo, he is trying to aid Bush. Any why shouldn't he, they're bosom buddies after all. If Bush really wanted Bin Laden dead, he'd be dead. Bin Laden is useful to Bush and Bush useful to Bin Laden. Each furthers the other's agenda. Bin Laden keeps Americans scared, and Bush is the "Big Daddy" who is supposed to protect us lil 'uns. So Bush makes it look good by pretending to chase him in remote parts of the world, for a little while, then focussing our attention on who he wants us to believe is the real threat to our security. Remember, from Bush's point of view, if we felt secure, we wouldn't need a gunslingin' cowyboy in the White House, would we? Bin Laden is basically Bush's hired boogey man to keep us feeling insecure until election day. So today the boogey man popped up to say, "Boo!"

 

[demon]

David James
"I can't see how this would help Bush."

Bin laden is still a CIA agent then. I thought as much Far from clearing Bush, it condemns him even more but we'll just ignore that.
Apparently he says in the video: "Neither Bush nor Kerry can protect America"...sounds like he is endorsing Nader to me.


On a slightly more serious note, according to the Guardian, "Bin Laden said: 'We decided to destroy towers in America'".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,1339708,00.html

Funnily enough, the BBC didn't report this line at all.
It would be wise to wait for a reliable, independent translation:

Also notice:

a) Complete lack of scepticism on the part of news organisations as to the authenticity of this video:

(CNN) -- Osama bin Laden delivered a new videotaped message ..

(ABC) -- Al-Jazeera Airs Videotape by Bin Laden ..

(MSNBC) -- Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden, in a videotape broadcast Friday on Al-Jazeera television, claims full responsibility ..

(BBC) -- Bin Laden video threatens America ..

b) Previous hoax videos not deemed worth mentioning. Who can forget the chubby bin laden admitting all back in dec 2001?

c) General unavailability of new video online for direct comparison with verified images of OBL.

Given the timing, and what has gone before why would anybody believe this is OBL?

 

[shanek]

If anything, I'd say it supports Badnarik. Bush and Kerry both pretend that the terrorists hate us for our freedom; Badnarik is the only one saying it's our foreign policy that's doing it. Bin Laden just came along and confirmed it.

Not that this excuses anything bin Laden has done, but as unjustified as the schoolyard bully might be beating you up and taking your lunch money, that doesn't mean it was fine for you to go and pick a fight with him to begin with.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If anything, I'd say it supports Badnarik. Bush and Kerry both pretend that the terrorists hate us for our freedom; Badnarik is the only one saying it's our foreign policy that's doing it. Bin Laden just came along and confirmed it.

Not that this excuses anything bin Laden has done, but as unjustified as the schoolyard bully might be beating you up and taking your lunch money, that doesn't mean it was fine for you to go and pick a fight with him to begin with.

Given that JREF loony Paul Bethke supports Libertarian loony Badnarik, I would have no doubt that Bin Laden would support him also. But I don't think that helps Badnarik in this country.

 

[varwoche]

Bush and Kerry both pretend that the terrorists hate us for our freedom; Badnarik is the only one saying it's our foreign policy that's doing it. Bin Laden just came along and confirmed it.

On this vital matter, I find myself in agreement with Badnarik.

 

[Batman Jr.]

On this vital matter, I find myself in agreement with Badnarik.

Me too, varwoche. Political buzzwords like "freedom," despite them possessing the enigmatic capability of captivating the population in general, have always just turned me off, and in particular the word "freedom" has been especially agitating to me due mostly to the fact that we have little of it.

 

[Art Vandelay]

It will hopefully be a wake-up call to those who have forgotten that Al-Qaeda and not Iraq was our primary terrorist threat. As to what really will result of it, however, I couldn't be certain.

I guess you're not including Israel in who you consider "us"?

varwoche

On this vital matter, I find myself in agreement with Badnarik.

Both are partially true, and both are partially false. If this were really just about our foreign policy, why aren't they pursuing an actual strategy to change it, rather than pissing us off and making our foreign policy even more objectionable? It is because they hate our freedom, and consider our lives expendable, that they can kill us so easily.

And the examples that people give of our foreign policy decisions that inspired 9/11 are just absurd. I've heard things like rejecting the Kyoto treaty being offered as reasons. Besides exhibiting a divorce from reality (how many al Qaeda members care about global warming?), there's an undercurrent of "people who oppose the Kyoto treaty should be murdered", which I find very disturbing.

 

[Batman Jr.]

I guess you're not including Israel in who you consider "us"?

Yes, I don't include them. Their primary terrorist threat is Hamas. As far as those doing "charitable" work for the group, Saudi Arabia is much more dangerous than Saddam Hussein's Iraq. To give you an idea of a comparison between the two, in all, Hussein gave $35 million to the Gaza Strip and West Bank and not all of that money went to militants; in a single month, Saudi Arabia raised $100 million for the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. But we all know the current administration doesn't want to ruin their rapport with "Bandar Bush," now don't we? Oh, yeah, and I'm Jewish, so don't go calling me an anti-Semite in your next post if you had the impulse to do so.

 

[peptoabysmal]

In the first Al-Qaida video to surface after more than a year, Bin Laden has accused Bush of "misleading" the American people since the 2001 suicide airline hijackings that hit New York's World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon.

Now we know who's been writing Kerry's campaign speeches.

Bin Laden revealed that the reason for attacking America was the frustration over what Arabs see as America's pro-Israeli Middle East policies and because, he said, "we are a free people... and we want to regain the freedom of our nation."

Translation:
America, look the other way while we purge the world of Jews and we won't attack you any more.

edited to add link:
http://www.ndtv.com/template/template.asp?template=Uspolls&slug=Osama+claims+responsibility+for+9%2F11&id=15559&callid=0&category=International

 

[glsunder]

"Bush and Kerry both pretend that the terrorists hate us for our freedom;"

neither has the guts to say it. They have to chant "Rah! Rah! Rah! GO USA!" to get votes. It's kind of like calling your sister a slut, even if she is.

 

[varwoche]

Now we know who's been writing Kerry's campaign speeches.

Your signal to noise ratio is truly woeful.

 

[Dorian Gray]

I find it interesting that bin Laden's phrasing goes out of its way to stay neutral in the election. Apart from that, I have no idea.

YES! I thought so too. At the risk of sounding unpatriotic, although I certainly don't want to sound like that, Osama bin Laden on this tape sounds like a moderate! Well, a moderate terrorist. He doesn't seem to be nearly as nutty as, say, Zarqawi or Sadr or Amriki (the American guy on the other recent tape).

The article from the AP almost made it seem like Osama was scolding the Bush family. He ripped into all three of them - GHW, GW and Jeb. He compared them to other families in Middle Eastern countries.

I have to say that I now understand why Osama did what he did. I am NOT saying that makes it right. I mean, knowing why someone does something criminal or evil is not the same as condoning it. A child abuser's dad might have abused him, but I would still beat the (censored) out of a child abuser if I saw him beating his kid, and he still deserves to go to jail. (have I qualified that enough for you?)

Here's just quotes of Osama from the AP article: (I have emphasized parts that could be damaging to Bush, and added comments)

Your security is not in the hands of Kerry, Bush or al-Qaida. Your security is in your own hands," bin Laden said, referring to the president and his Democratic opponent. "Any state that does not mess with our security has naturally guaranteed its own security." (Note: This is true mostly - more on this later(the security part). He seems to indicate that he doesn't care who wins, as long as they change US foreign policy on Israel, Palestine and Lebanon. )

Admitting for the first time that he ordered the Sept. 11 attacks, bin Laden said he did so because of injustices against the Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel and the United States.

In what appeared to be conciliatory language, bin Laden said he wanted to explain why he ordered the suicide airline hijackings that hit the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (news - web sites) so Americans would know how to act to prevent another attack.

"To the American people, my talk to you is about the best way to avoid another Manhattan," he said. "I tell you: Security is an important element of human life and, free people do not give up their security.
...
In the video, bin Laden accused Bush of misleading Americans by saying the attack was carried out because al-Qaida members "hate freedom." The terrorist leader said his followers have left alone countries that do not threaten Muslims. (Note: Here is the "more" I was talking about. You don't see al-Qaida in Brazil, or New Zealand, or India, for example)

"We fought you because we are free ... and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours," bin Laden said.

He said he was first inspired to attack the United States by the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon in which towers and buildings in Beirut were destroyed in the siege of the capital.

"While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women," he said.

"God knows that it had not occurred to our mind to attack the towers, but after our patience ran out and we saw the injustice and inflexibility of the American-Israeli alliance toward our people in Palestine and Lebanon, this came to my mind," he said.

Bin Laden suggested Bush was slow to react to the Sept. 11 attacks, giving the hijackers more time than they expected. At the time of the attacks, the president was listening to schoolchildren in Florida reading a book.

"It never occurred to us that the commander in chief of the American armed forces would leave 50,000 of his citizens in the two towers to face these horrors alone," he said, referring to the number of people who worked at the World Trade Center.

"It appeared to him (Bush) that a little girl's talk about her goat and its butting was more important than the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers. That gave us three times the required time to carry out the operations, thank God," he said. (Note: These last three paragraphs are very damaging to Bush - they make Bush look like an idiot, especially the last one. I bet Bush wishes he had remained focused on Osama now.)
...
In planning the attacks, bin Laden said he told Mohammed Atta, one of the hijackers, that the strikes had to be carried out "within 20 minutes before Bush and his administration noticed."

Bin Laden compared the Bush administration to repressive Arab regimes, "half of which are ruled by the military and the other half are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents."

He said the resemblance became clear when Bush's father was president and visited Arab countries.

"He wound up being impressed by the royal and military regimes and envied them for staying decades in their positions and embezzling the nation's money with no supervision," bin Laden said.

"He passed on tyranny and oppression to his son, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the pretext of fighting terror. Bush the father did well in placing his sons as governors and did not forget to pass on the expertise in fraud from the leaders of the (Mideast) region to Florida to use it in critical moments."(Note: Much as it sickens me to say it, I agree with the point about the Patriot Act - how many times has it been used to thwart terror compared to, say, removing counterfeit toys off the shelves. However, notice that he basically calls Mideast leaders "fraud experts" - apparently, he isn't too fond of many rulers in the Middle East either. He specifically mentioned "royal", an obvious reference to the Saudis. And hey, there have been bombings in Saudi Arabia, huh. He must not like the Saudi royal family either. And they are all pals with the Bush family. Interesting.)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...p_on_re_mi_ea/bin_laden_tape&cid=540&ncid=716
I hope I didn't offend anyone on this forum. I think Osama should have been hunted down and killed, or whatever. The fact that he has released a tape now should underline the fact that Bush not only failed to capture him, but that he is still dangerous, and Iraq looks more and more like a huge diversion now.

Art, you didn't listen. Osama said which policies he wanted changed - policies that hurt Muslims, specifically Palestinians and Lebanese. And as I said, he seems to be implicating the Saudi royals in the "harming Muslims" group.

Pepto:

Translation:
America, look the other way while we purge the world of Jews and we won't attack you any more.

That's one partisan way to look at it. I think a closer translation would be Stop letting Israel do whatever it wants while punishing Palestine. I think it's just as sick to fire a missile into an apartment building full of people just to get one guy as it is to blow yourself up in a crowd of people to get as many as you can. Look at how especially the conservative talk radio guys and some people on this forum basically lump all 1 billion Muslims together - usually saying they want to kill us, they hate us, " why aren't they pursuing an actual strategy to change it", "It is because they hate our freedom, and consider our lives expendable, that they can kill us so easily".

On a related note, I don't understand this:

But Bush objected when Kerry, during a local television interview, repeated his almost daily criticism that Bush allowed bin Laden to escape in Afghanistan (news - web sites) after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks when he "outsourced the job" to Afghan fighters.

"This is the worst kind of Monday-morning quarterbacking," Bush said of Kerry's comment. "It is especially shameful in light of the new tape by America's enemy."

How is this shameful in the slightest? Kerry has been criticizing Bush for MONTHS about letting Osama bin Laden remain free and diverting attention to Iraq. This new tape gives HUGE weight to Kerry's attacks - if Bush had captured Osama, there would be no more tapes, no more calls for terrorism from Osama, no more lectures.

And finally, I'd like to point out that Bush's reaction to the tapes was just like his reaction to the WTC attacks - slow. Call me whatever, but I think this tape underscores Bush's mismanaged priorities. He took out a man that was no threat and who had never attacked America, and let the man who DID attack America go free to threaten to do it again.

 

[varwoche]

Bush and Kerry both pretend that the terrorists hate us for our freedom; Badnarik is the only one saying it's our foreign policy that's doing it.

This is a point of view shared by Michael Shuerer, aka "Anonymous", CIA counter-terrorism expert, head of the CIA bin Laden station, author of Imperial Hubris.
thread

Sorry to be a broken record, but this book is must read.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Art, you didn't listen.

To bin Laden? No, I haven't gotten a copy of his speech. I don't think that killing 3000 people makes someone's opinion more important, and I don't speak Arabic anyway.

Osama said which policies he wanted changed - policies that hurt Muslims, specifically Palestinians and Lebanese.

Looks like you're the one not listening. Even if he did tell us what he doesn't like, that's not really doing anything about it, now is it?

And the quotes you offered contained no specifics, just vague references. But let me guess- you're going to now imply that these quotes are out there, somewhere, and I should just look harder?

I think it's just as sick to fire a missile into an apartment building full of people just to get one guy as it is to blow yourself up in a crowd of people to get as many as you can.

I don't. If the only way to kill a murderer is to kill other people who are tacitly supporting him, that can be justified. If the Allies had had a chance to kill Hitler, but they would have had to kill a bunch of civilians to do it, would that be just as sick as killing a bunch of civilians just to kill a bunch of civilians?

Look at how especially the conservative talk radio guys and some people on this forum basically lump all 1 billion Muslims together - usually saying they want to kill us, they hate us, " why aren't they pursuing an actual strategy to change it", "It is because they hate our freedom, and consider our lives expendable, that they can kill us so easily".

And look at how some people on this forum care absolutely nothing of the truth, implying that other posters are talking about Muslims, when it's quite obvious that they are talking specifically about TERRORISTS. Apparently merely using a pronoun to refer to TERRORISTS, rather than typing out the word "TERRORIST" every single time one wishes to talk about TERRORISTS, means that one is really talking about Muslims. Unless, of course, one is expressing an opinion Dorian Gray agrees with, in which case it's just fine. I guess it's a good thing that I didn't refer THE TERRORISTS as "those people"; then I'd be talking about blacks, wouldn't I?

On a related note, I don't understand this: How is this shameful in the slightest?

Well, there is the implied criticism that Bush should have known that hunting down bin Laden was too important a task to involve, you know, THEM.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Oh, yeah, and I'm Jewish, so don't go calling me an anti-Semite in your next post if you had the impulse to do so.

Not anti-Semite, just looking at things from an American perspective. While it's arguable as to who posed a greater threat to the US, I think it's clear that Saddam was more dangerous to the world than bin Laden. And, as you say, there are others that are more dangerous than either.