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Once a torturer always a torturer

E.J.Armstrong

Illuminator
E
Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Messages
3,806
'...In his first major interview since leaving office, former president George W. Bush defended the most controversial aspects of his tenure - including the use of waterboarding against terrorism suspects and the invasion of Iraq. ...'

From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...AR2010110807347.html?nav=rss_email/components

Also

'...He said he personally approved use of the tactic on Khalid Sheik Mohammed, a plotter of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, adding that when he was told that it and other harsh interrogation techniques were legal, he ordered: "Use 'em." ...'

Here we see a torturer claim that he personally ordered torture to be used. Let us not forget that he pressured the lawyers to declare torture to be legal.

His behaviour amounts to a crime and is illegal under many international treaties the USA has signed up to (including the Geneva conventions). What has happened to this criminal? Nothing. Nada. he struts the streets of the USA free and easy, justifying torture to all and sundry. He argues that to defend Usans it is necessary to use torture.

This episode shows: -


1/ That the world cannot trust the USA not to break any human rights treaties it signs.
2/ That Usan soldiers are now at more danger of being tortured because a US government declared that torture is legal all around the world.
3/ Hypocrisy on a breath taking scale. The USA walks around the world stage demanding others obey the law while it will not prosecute self-confessed torturers because they are Usan. Is this not an example of a major reason why the Founding Fathers of the USA wanted to break away from the UK - the arbitrary use of power and law breaking in favour of the rich and powerful. Perhaps Bush and the Republican party never actually read the Declaration of Independence.
4/ This suggests that as soon as another Republican president is elected that the USA will start torturing again. One only has to listen to what possible Republican candidates for the Presidency are saying. People like the deeply odious Palin and her lunatic cronies in the racist Tea Party.

PS
For those of the knee jerk inclination that criticising the USA over its official use of torture is anti-Usan - do you really, really want to claim that being pro-Usan is to be pro-torture and/or that the USA has no need to keep treaties on human rights?

PPS
For those inclined to argue that torture is legal please see just some of the following: -

'...Throughout history, torture has often been used as a method of effecting political re-education and coercion. In the 21st century, torture is considered to be a violation of human rights, and is declared to be unacceptable by Article 5 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Signatories of the Third Geneva Convention and Fourth Geneva Convention officially agree not to torture prisoners in armed conflicts. Torture is also prohibited by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which has been ratified by 147 states.[3]
National and international legal prohibitions on torture derive from a consensus that torture and ill-treatment are immoral, as well as being impractical.[4] Despite these international conventions, however, many organizations (e.g. Amnesty International and the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims) that monitor abuses of human rights report a widespread use of torture condoned by states in many regions of the world.[5]...'

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

The USA is a signatory of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. Bush confessed that he ordered torture. That is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions.
 
Who gives a rat's ass if KSM is suffering for what he's done. I say carry on and ramp it up. Make the slime beg for death and give him everything but.
 
Polaris said:
Who gives a rat's ass if KSM is suffering for what he's done. I say carry on and ramp it up. Make the slime beg for death and give him everything but.
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Then as a supporter of torture you have no respect for the law. As you have no respect for the law why do you expect other countries to respect the law?
 
Dear FSM, a thread where I agree with EJ. I might as well just give up now. :(
 
lionking said:
Meh. One man's torturer is another man's harsh interrogator.
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Au contraire - no Usan can change the definition of torture.

Changing definitions of illegal activities in order to permit human rights abuses is what despots and tyrants have always done and is what the founding fathers of the USA complained about. It is done only by people who have no respect for human rights.

Water boarding was, is and always will be torture. It certainly was when Usans were water boarded. George W. Bush was and remains a self-confessed torturer.

This man was the President of the USA and was a torturer in that position. He was the torturer in chief and every citizen of the USA knew it. Some brave people stood up and refuse to be part of the official US torture programme but most did nothing about it and Obama is doing nothing about it.

Bush, by his own admission, ordered torture to be carried out. He will undoubtedly be arrested and charged with war crimes for his many documented grave breaches of the Geneva convention as soon as he sets foot in any decent country where human rights and international law are respected.

If anyone sees George W. Bush and/or Donald Rumsfeld, Condalezza Rice and Richard Cheney trying to enter their country they should call a human rights lawyer immediately.
 
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I'm beginning to suspect that perhaps, just maybe, George W. Bush isn't universally respected and beloved! Shocking, I know. But we must entertain even this dire possibility, no matter how crazy it sounds, if we hope to understand the mad ideas of others.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I'm beginning to suspect that perhaps, just maybe, George W. Bush isn't universally respected and beloved! Shocking, I know. But we must entertain even this dire possibility, no matter how crazy it sounds, if we hope to understand the mad ideas of others.
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Do I detect that you are showing some contempt for people who are against torture or perhaps you are in favour of torture or breaking the law or perhaps are you just pulling your usual stunt of making snide comments that contribute absolutely nothing to the thread in question in an attempt to derail it?

Please tell us all what you think you are achieving and what exactly is the point of your post?
 
E.J.Armstrong said:
Do I detect that you are showing some contempt for people who are against torture or perhaps you are in favour of torture or breaking the law or perhaps are you just pulling your usual stunt of making snide comments that contribute absolutely nothing to the thread in question in an attempt to derail it?

Please tell us all what you think you are achieving and what exactly is the point of your post?
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Why, to point out that no matter how right you think you are, nor how shrill you get, nor how many hundreds of threads you start, you aren't accomplishing anything at all. Do you think you are? If you really cared so much, why don't you spend your time bothering your government representatives? Complaining on the internet doesn't seem to work to achieve anything. What do you think will happen? Karl Rove will stumble across your thread and exclaim "Good God! I'm a monster, and never realized it!" and have a change of heart? Or that everybody reading this particular messageboard will suddenly decide to form a mob and go lynch a former president? There are things in life that you just can't fix, no matter how deeply you feel about them. Dwelling on them endlessly isn't healthy.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Why, to point out that no matter how right you think you are, nor how shrill you get, nor how many hundreds of threads you start, you aren't accomplishing anything at all. Do you think you are? If you really cared so much, why don't you spend your time bothering your government representatives? Complaining on the internet doesn't seem to work to achieve anything. What do you think will happen? Karl Rove will stumble across your thread and exclaim "Good God! I'm a monster, and never realized it!" and have a change of heart? Or that everybody reading this particular messageboard will suddenly decide to form a mob and go lynch a former president? There are things in life that you just can't fix, no matter how deeply you feel about them. Dwelling on them endlessly isn't healthy.
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Translation: - this site will only discuss what Tragic Monkey wants and if that doesn't happen Tragic Monkey will try and stop the discussion by demonising people he/she doesn't like.

How utterly sad.

PS
Any chance of you providing any evidence for your claims?

PPS
If you have anything to contribute to the topic of why self-confessed torturers are allowed to change the definition of torture and walk around the USA free and easy we would like to hear it.
 
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E.J.Armstrong said:
Translation: - this site will only discuss what Tragic Monkey wants and if that doesn't happen Tragic Monkey will try and stop the discussion by demonising people he/she doesn't like.
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Yeah, that must be it. I don't even know you, so I neither like nor dislike you.

Any chance of you providing any evidence for your claims?
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What claims? The only claim I've made is that your thread will accomplish nothing. What do you think it will accomplish? Bush's arrest and trial?

If you have anything to contribute to the topic of why self-confessed torturers are allowed to change the definition of torture and walk around the USA free and easy we would like to hear it.
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Simple: because sufficient numbers of people, including the government of the US, believe either that a) it doesn't count as torture, or b) torture was justified in the circumstances. That you don't share that view is obvious, but that hardly means you are incapable of understanding that others think those things. Unless and until enough people, or enough people with actual power, share your opinion against either or both of those two points, nothing will happen to Bush or anyone else involved by way of retribution or justice or punishment.
 
Polaris said:
Who gives a rat's ass if KSM is suffering for what he's done.
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Those who gives a rat's ass about the rule of law.

Cainkane1 said:
Waterboarding might save the lives of hundreds of people. There is no injury and no lasting physical damage. Its a cheap price to pay.
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Since it is, in your words, such a harmless and effective technique, should the police be allowed to use it on suspects?
 
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Despite the usual hyperbole and idiotic trolling attempts by the OP, the basic premise of the thread is correct. It is hypocrisy on a massive scale. But the UK have as much to be ashamed at for turning a blind eye to stuff like this.

Do as we say, not as we do.
 
We're always going to use interrogation, including harsh and uncomfortable interrogation, of prisoners.
There's always going to be some technique or group of techniques that are considered the absolute harshest that we can legally do -- the borderline cases that is almost as bad as torture, but not quite there.
And there will always be those who claim that that technique crosses the line, and therefore that those attempting to skirt the line without crossing it (do as good a job as possible within the law) are in fact over the line -- are in fact terrible criminals.
If it weren't waterboarding, it would be the next thing.
I think the judgment that waterboarding is harsh interrogation but not torture is a reasonable judgment and would not claim that those who have engaged in waterboarding are violating international agreements against torture. I certainly wouldn't call for them to be tried for violating human rights.
 
AvalonXQ said:
We're always going to use interrogation, including harsh and uncomfortable interrogation, of prisoners.
There's always going to be some technique or group of techniques that are considered the absolute harshest that we can legally do -- the borderline cases that is almost as bad as torture, but not quite there.
And there will always be those who claim that that technique crosses the line, and therefore that those attempting to skirt the line without crossing it (do as good a job as possible within the law) are in fact over the line -- are in fact terrible criminals.
If it weren't waterboarding, it would be the next thing.
I think the judgment that waterboarding is harsh interrogation but not torture is a reasonable judgment and would not claim that those who have engaged in waterboarding are violating international agreements against torture. I certainly wouldn't call for them to be tried for violating human rights.
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You think the police should be permitted to do it to suspected criminals then?
 
I usually disagree with most of what George Bush Jr stands/stood for, but this is one of the things he got right. What are we meant to do? just ask them politely "are you a terrorist?" War is a dirty business...
 
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