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Merged Ominous new development in Libya?

mike3

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Hi.

I saw this:

http://news.yahoo.com/libyas-transitional-leader-declares-liberation-155513082.html

The transitional government leader Mustafa Abdul-Jalil set out a vision for the post-Gadhafi future with an Islamist tint, saying that Islamic Sharia law would be the "basic source" of legislation in the country and that existing laws that contradict the teachings of Islam would be nullified. In a gesture that showed his own piety, he urged Libyans not to express their joy by firing in the air, but rather to chant "Allahu Akbar," or God is Great. He then stepped aside and knelt to offer a brief prayer of thanks.
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Iran, anyone?
 
Hi.

That's mentioned in the NTC draft constitution, a mostly liberal document which you can read here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62823350/Libya-Draft-Constitutional-Charter-for-the-Transitional-Stage

It's not Iran. It's regressive to have your laws derive from religion, but it isn't Iran. Indeed, look at Article 6:

'Libyans shall be equal before the law. They shall enjoy equal civil and political rights, shall have the same oppurtunities.. without discrimination due to religion, belief, race, language, wealth..'

I imagine they will follow the type of Islamism that was popularised by Turkish Prime Minister Erdoğan.

Here's what Open Democracy has to say:
Some commentators express dismay that sharia (i.e. Islamic jurisprudence) is “the principle source of legislation” under the interim text (Article 1); but that wording is not unusual in comparative practice, even when compared to the region’s more liberal countries. Tunisia's previous constitution (now suspended) provided that Islam was the religion of the state, but did not declare that sharia was a source of legislation.

Egypt's previous constitution (also suspended) went further in stating that Islam was "the principal" source of legislation. The wording of the new Moroccan constitution (which came into effect in July 2011) is that Islam is the religion of the state, but it does not mention sharia (though it does say that political parties cannot work against the Islamic religion).

Whatever the case may be, it isn’t clear that these constitutional provisions on sharia have any practical effect. The provision is mostly symbolic as it has not been translated into firm obligations on the part of legislators to look first to Islamic sources before considering other sources of inspiration. In practice, if a parliament is mostly composed of Islamists, those legislators will regard Islam as their inspiration regardless of the constitution’s reference to (or silence on) the issue. If the parliament is mostly composed of communists, then Islam will probably not be a source of inspiration.
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http://www.opendemocracy.net/zaid-al-ali/libya’s-interim-constitution-assessment
 
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Thanks for the response. So I guess it's not so bad as I thought. Biased media?
 
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No, I don't think so (Unless you are Glenn Beck!), it's just a belief perhaps that the term Sharia in Libya (Although I'm not confident that was an accurate translation of the NTC constitution) means the same as Sharia in Afghanistan or Iran while its meaning can be a lot more diverse throughout the Muslim world.

I saw an interview with the PM Jibril who said the Islamic code of Libya is called Maliki which is apparently a moderate religious law or something. I'm sure we'd all prefer New Libya to follow Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's vision for Turkey, but I'd say the chances of Libya descending into a theocratic nightmare such as the one Iran suffers under is quite low.
 
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The ominous stuff's been going on for eight months. Sharia law is only part of it, and was the norm (women veiled, etc.) everywhere the rebels took. Once they don't need the hardcore Islamist help, they'll likely drop it, perhaps sparking more fighting with the Islamists, so perhaps not.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
No, I don't think so (Unless you are Glenn Beck!), it's just a belief perhaps that the term Sharia in Libya (Although I'm not confident that was an accurate translation of the NTC constitution) means the same as Sharia in Afghanistan or Iran while its meaning can be a lot more diverse throughout the Muslim world.

I saw an interview with the PM Jibril who said the Islamic code of Libya is called Maliki which is apparently a moderate religious law or something. I'm sure we'd all prefer New Libya to follow Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's vision for Turkey, but I'd say the chances of Libya descending into a theocratic nightmare such as the one Iran suffers under is quite low.
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Indeed. Seems more like scare press than actual something to worry terribly about.

Sharia law can be as innocuous as Judeo-Christian law or as dangerous/restrictive/etc as Judeo-Christian law ;)
 
FYI Sharia was also declared a basic source of law under Gaddafi. Part of his revolutionary program was to abolish all laws and, theoretically, start over from Islam. So this is a holdover if anything. Here's a stamp that commemorated the event:

f0wC5.jpg
 
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It's an example of how people overreact to buzz words they don't understand.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Hi.

That's mentioned in the NTC draft constitution, a mostly liberal document which you can read here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62823350/Libya-Draft-Constitutional-Charter-for-the-Transitional-Stage

It's not Iran. It's regressive to have your laws derive from religion, but it isn't Iran. Indeed, look at Article 6:

'Libyans shall be equal before the law. They shall enjoy equal civil and political rights, shall have the same oppurtunities.. without discrimination due to religion, belief, race, language, wealth..'
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Maybe it's not Iran, maybe it is. We shall see how they define their words.

Article 19
All people of Iran, whatever the ethnic group or tribe to which they belong, enjoy equal rights; and color, race, language, and the like, do not bestow any privilege.

Article 20
All citizens of the country, both men and women, equally enjoy the protection of the law and enjoy all human, political, economic, social, and cultural rights, in conformity with Islamic criteria.
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Etc etc.

It's one thing to say it, quite another to put it into practice, particularly when framed as no law can conflict with Islamic law.

Who's interpreting Islamic law?
 
I might be ominous (or it might not), but it's certainly not a new development. Statements that the laws of an Islamic nation stem from and can't conflict with shariah are common in the region, even among so-called "secular" states.

The constitution of Egypt from 1980 until the recent revolution (and it probably won't change even now) stated exactly that, for instance.

EDIT: Just read your sig. :( I'm so sorry, WildCat.
 
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Libya Now Under Sharia Law

You had to know it was going to happen.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/libyas-leaders-declare-liberation-151603380.html

He [National Transitional Council leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil] talked about immediate changes to laws — specifically amending regulations concerning marriage, banking and housing loans, banishing massive interest rates — to conform to Sharia law.
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They liberated a country in order to enslave half the population. Libyan women rejoice. :rolleyes:
 
While I agree it could go very wrong, on the face of it there is no real reason to worry that much.
Most of european law is or was based upon christianity and women are allowed to do things there usually. The same for the americas
Israel specifically has its laws based upon jewish laws and last I heard noone has been stoned there in ages.

Only time will tell wether it will go towards the iran/afghanistan/saudi interpretation or the turkish model
 
qayak said:
You had to know it was going to happen.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/libyas-leaders-declare-liberation-151603380.html



They liberated a country in order to enslave half the population. Libyan women rejoice. :rolleyes:
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You seem to be under a misapprehension as to what "sharia law" means. There is not some set-in-stone single definition of what it means. The various countries that claim to have "sharia law" all have different legal, legislative and justice processes. Of course some have in my opinion terrible systems but that holds for many countries.

As Lukraak_Sisser said we'll have to see what the actual systems of law and justice end up looking like before we will be able to say (for instance) their justice system is biased against women.

Also this is not news, the NTC stated all along that this was their intention.
 
The same is true in Iraq, Afghanistan and our so-called "allies" Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia probably has the most female-unfriendly Sharia law regime of them all.

And Libya wasn't exactly Sharia-free under Gaddhafi either. It certainly wasn't a bastion of freedom for women.
 
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What are the chances the model is going to be the Turkish model, which has been losing ground in recent years mind you, as opposed to the more restrictive models that have been all the rage in all the countries that have fallen in the last several years? Anybody want to lay bets on this one?
 
qayak said:
What are the chances the model is going to be the Turkish model, which has been losing ground in recent years mind you, as opposed to the more restrictive models that have been all the rage in all the countries that have fallen in the last several years? Anybody want to lay bets on this one?
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I really don't know - I'm hoping that it wouldn't result in something like Iran or SA but you never know. I've been unpleasantly surprised about the polls from Tunisia given that country's background.
 
I've been faily impressed with the PM Jibril. He was interviewed on BBC World yesterday and seems a voice of integrity and modernisation. Shame he can't stand in the election, but that's an honourable article written into the NTC constitution.
 
qayak said:
Y
They liberated a country in order to enslave half the population. Libyan women rejoice. :rolleyes:
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I don't see how new loan regulations, though probably bad for the economy, amount of "enslavement of all women".

McHrozni
 
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