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Old Testament World

CriticalSock

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Above is an example of a representation of what the writers of the Old Testament would have believed the phsyical world was like.

What evidence, beyond the biblical description, is there that this is true?

Because if it's just referencing the bible then the argument boils down to "I interpret the bible this way" and the global flood believers saying "Well, I interpret the bible *this* way" (poetic language to describe real events probably).

That would make me sad...
 
What evidence, beyond the biblical description, is there that this is true?
What do you mean? What evidence is there that the world was truly like this? Or what evidence is there that the ancients truly believed it? Or what evidence is there that this is truly the model they believed? Or that this is a day to be good on?
 
Above is an example of a representation of what the writers of the Old Testament would have believed the phsyical world was like.
According to whom?

What evidence, beyond the biblical description, is there that this is true?
But... it's not true. Why would there be evidence of such a thing?!

Because if it's just referencing the bible then the argument boils down to "I interpret the bible this way" and the global flood believers saying "Well, I interpret the bible *this* way" (poetic language to describe real events probably).

That would make me sad...
What argument?
 
What do you mean? What evidence is there that the world was truly like this? Or what evidence is there that the ancients truly believed it? Or what evidence is there that this is truly the model they believed? Or that this is a day to be good on?

What evidence is there that this was the world view of people around the time that Genesis was written?
 
According to whom?

People off the internets.

But... it's not true. Why would there be evidence of such a thing?!

I agree it's not true! But current Christians (well, most of them) don't believe it's true either.

What argument?

The literal global flood argument. The argument which says that the bibles references to pillars, waters below the earth, heavenly firmaments etc etc are not literal but poetic references to very real world components.
 
What evidence is there that this was the world view of people around the time that Genesis was written?
We have what was written at the time. It was almost certainly metaphorical to some degree - I doubt the Egyptians truly believed an actual dung beetle rolled the sun across the sky - but if pressed they would probably stick by it for lack of any better option. Why does it matter?
 
We have what was written at the time. It was almost certainly metaphorical to some degree - I doubt the Egyptians truly believed an actual dung beetle rolled the sun across the sky - but if pressed they would probably stick by it for lack of any better option. Why does it matter?

It matters to my attempts to disprove the literal global flood belief, based on the bible account, that I encounter on a fairly regular basis.

If we have evidence that the prevailing belief at the time the account was written that the earth was a disc with waters below and waters above then this proves that the bible account is based on an incorrect world view and therefore cannot be of divine origin.

I don't know whether the Egyptians truly believed in a dung beetle rolling the sun across the sky, but did they truly believe that the firmament of the heavens was a metal bowl, the only thing preventing the waters above from drowning the world?
 
I don't know whether the Egyptians truly believed in a dung beetle rolling the sun across the sky, but did they truly believe that the firmament of the heavens was a metal bowl, the only thing preventing the waters above from drowning the world?

Why does it matter what the Egyptians believed. The ancient Egyptians didn't believe in the Bible.

Wouldn't it matter what the ancient Israelites believed? And I don't think we have any records to evidence their existence (before, at the earliest, King David), much less whether they believed the world was round.
 
People off the internets.
I don't think "current Christians" will be convinced by an argument that starts "Well, according to people off the internets, ancient Israelites believed X, and that belief was shared by ancient Egyptians, and that belief we now know is wrong, so therefore the Bible isn't divinely inspired."

I mean, I know literalists believe in insanely foolish stuff, but I think even that argument is gong to fall short.
 
It matters to my attempts to disprove the literal global flood belief, based on the bible account, that I encounter on a fairly regular basis.

If we have evidence that the prevailing belief at the time the account was written that the earth was a disc with waters below and waters above then this proves that the bible account is based on an incorrect world view and therefore cannot be of divine origin.


I don't see why that's true at all. The Bible says whatever it says. If your picture of the universe, above, was in line with what people once thought the Bible said , what does that matter? The picture isn't in the Bible. Those people had an incorrect understanding.

Nor does it matter whether that understanding allowed for a global flood. First of all, the understanding may have been wrong - either before the flood or afterwards. It wouldn't affect that the flood occurred (if it did). Prior to recently, it was believed by many physicists that the universe was eternal. The Big Bang was still a fact; they just didn't believe it.

Second, you forget that the god we're dealing with is God. If he wants to create a hollow space inside water, he can. He is God. If he then wants to have a flood, he can have a flood. He's God. He's all powerful. He's not constrained by rules of physics - even those rules that he himself creates.

I don't get your argument.
 
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We were exposed to this worldview as Catholic School youngsters back in the 50s. If you think about it, it's pretty logical, especially for folks living in that part of the world. The sky indeed looks like a big bowl over a pretty-flat world.
If it is, where would the rain come from. Well, from gates in the big bowl. And unlimited amounts of water if God got PO'ed and wanted to flood the place...

It's been pointed out many times (by Sagan, among others) that it would have been amazingly easy for God to encode some information in the body that the ancients could not have possibly known but that would become apparent with technological advancement.
 
There is a lot of evidence that that model of the cosmos is true! Which also makes it plausible (though it does not prove) that people unaware of most of the contrary evidence would accept such a model.

- Rain falls from the sky, but water does not flow uphill. Therefore there must be a supply of water already in the sky. However, that water does not block our view of the sun, moon, and stars, so it must be farther away.

- We see lights in the sky, but if you try to put a light in the sky without something holding it up, it falls. Therefore there must be something, a structure or firmament, holding those lights up. Such a structure would also serve to hold the water, and so is consistent with the previous item.

- The sun, moon, and even (with careful observation) most of the stars, are seen to disappear below the horizon on one side of the world and reappear some hours later on the other. Therefore there must be an underground connection for those objects to move through. Water flows downward, so those underground spaces must be filled with water, which still allows passage because it's fluid.

- Most stone and earth, however, sink into water, so something must be holding the surface of the earth up. A solid structure underneath, like a pyramid, could do that but would block the passage of the sun and moon. Pillars, however, can hold things up while allowing things to pass underneath.

... and so forth. People back then weren't stupid; they just didn't know squat about how anything really works.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
It matters to my attempts to disprove the literal global flood belief, based on the bible account, that I encounter on a fairly regular basis.

Shouldn't Gilgamesh or Atrahasis prove more valuable there? The Flood is a common story for that area, and the further back we go, the shorter and more regional it becomes. It's the clearest big fish story in the bible. Atrahasis only had to grab some chickens and climb on his roof for a week. Most importantly, the gods change each time to match the period's beliefs.
 
What evidence is there that this was the world view of people around the time that Genesis was written?

The book of Job says "The earth takes shape like clay under a seal." (Job 38:14.)

Here's what a clay seal looks like...


Basically a flat disc with hills and valleys, much as the earth appears to us from ground level.

Steve S
 
I thought this thread was going to be about "Old Testament World" a new theme park where I could take my kids to see some smiting of the unrighteous, talking animals, public stoning, homicidal bears, global catastrophes and good old-fashioned slavery, all from the safety of an iron chariot.

Oh well.:(
 
The problem with taking it as just a metaphor is that basically:

A) there is no evidence that any religious or spiritual explanations of reality start as metaphors, as opposed to bona fide explanations. The "oh, it's a metaphor" stage is the dying throes of a religion, when people want to stick to it despite evidence that what it says is BS, not the way such explanations start.

When we encounter tribes which don't yet have that extra information to reconcile with what legends say, we find that they take their explanations very seriously. It may sound just spiritual metaphor to you that the shaman visits the dream land to talk to the great rabbit spirits and make them promise to send more rabbits popping out from the ground. Or that if those rabbits don't appear, it must have been the next tribe's evil magicks that kept the rabbits away. But to them it ain't. If those rabbits don't show up, the next step is violent conflict with the next tribe, to teach them a lesson. You don't put your life on the line for a metaphor.

There is basically no reason to believe that when they came up with the 'waters above the firmament' explanation, it was a metaphor, as opposed to actually trying to explain the rain.

B) The problem is also with what "metaphor" MEANS and DOES. It's not a generic word for any BS belief that one doesn't want to deal with.

A metaphor (or simile, whatever) is trying to transfer information from domain X which is known, to domain Y which is being explained. E.g., when Newton talked about standing on the shoulders of giants, he's using something the reader would know, namely that you see farther from a raised position, to explain how using the science of other people helped him make the next step. You have the domain X, the domain Y, and the information being transferred from one to another.

But at any rate, to make a metaphor, I must know both the X I use in my text, and the Y I'm trying to tell you about.

If it doesn't do that, it's not a metaphor.

And I submit that that's the problem with such BS as basically reading 'waters above the heaven' in an ancient religious text, and going 'oh, it's a metaphor for ice comets in space.' No, it isn't. There is no indication that those people knew that domain Y at all. They weren't using metaphors to explain what science would discover 3000 years later, because they just didn't know that science.
 
The book of Job says "The earth takes shape like clay under a seal." (Job 38:14.)
Disclaimer: I do not believe the Bible is true ot that God exists. It is a work of fiction.

BUT, that verse is not describing the shape of the Earth. It is God saying that He can shape the earth like someone can shape clay using a seal.
 
There is a lot of evidence that that model of the cosmos is true! Which also makes it plausible (though it does not prove) that people unaware of most of the contrary evidence would accept such a model.

- Rain falls from the sky, but water does not flow uphill. Therefore there must be a supply of water already in the sky. However, that water does not block our view of the sun, moon, and stars, so it must be farther away.

- We see lights in the sky, but if you try to put a light in the sky without something holding it up, it falls. Therefore there must be something, a structure or firmament, holding those lights up. Such a structure would also serve to hold the water, and so is consistent with the previous item.

- The sun, moon, and even (with careful observation) most of the stars, are seen to disappear below the horizon on one side of the world and reappear some hours later on the other. Therefore there must be an underground connection for those objects to move through. Water flows downward, so those underground spaces must be filled with water, which still allows passage because it's fluid.

- Most stone and earth, however, sink into water, so something must be holding the surface of the earth up. A solid structure underneath, like a pyramid, could do that but would block the passage of the sun and moon. Pillars, however, can hold things up while allowing things to pass underneath.

... and so forth. People back then weren't stupid; they just didn't know squat about how anything really works.

Respectfully,
Myriad

I'm not saying that the people were stupid. It is claimed that the bible is divinely inspired. Although written by men every word in it is what God wanted written there.

So if it was the prevailing belief at the time the bible was written that the sky was a metal dome holding back the waters and the earth is a disc supported on pillars on top of even more water and *this* was the world view which a story in the bible was based on then the bible cannot be divinely authored and can only be the work of human writers of the time.

kedo1981, The bible is a lie and only a moron believes it can be countered with "The bible is true and only a moron doesn't believe it."
Also, statements like that tend to cast a chill over family gatherings...
 
Disclaimer: I do not believe the Bible is true ot that God exists. It is a work of fiction.

BUT, that verse is not describing the shape of the Earth. It is God saying that He can shape the earth like someone can shape clay using a seal.

Job said:
38:013 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the
wicked might be shaken out of it?

38:014 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

38:015 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high
arm shall be broken.

A garment that is shaken out and clay \ seal imagery doesn't have anything of a sphere about it though does it? it's all flat or flattened imagery.
 

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