Obama helps out Turkey with Armenian problem

[scissorhands]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8299712.stm



From one of the many outraged Armenians who responded to this news article.

Lesson learned. Genocide pays!!

I don't think we're headed in the right direction as a planet when the world powers allow the murder of 1.5 million people to go by unpunished.

Vahe

I guess genocide isnt such a big deal when economics come into play.
Nobel peace prize for Obama?
Well, money and influence talk, so sod the ethics.

 

[cisco]

Ummm, it sucks that Turkey is being stubborn, I guess, but we're talking about something that happened 94 years ago, no? I think peace today is more important than apologies for 1915.

 

[scissorhands]

Ummm, it sucks that Turkey is being stubborn, I guess, but we're talking about something that happened 94 years ago, no? I think peace today is more important than apologies for 1915.

The countries involved werent at war so "peace today" isnt really the point..?

Expecting an apology for a whole generation of your ancestors being wiped out in a genocide is quite an important step to normalising relations though.
Id expect you would feel similarly, if it was your ancestors history being swept under the carpet.

 

[GreNME]

How dare Obama not go back in time and save each and every one of the Armenians from slaughter personally?

How dare Obama not demand another sovereign nation change all of their history books over an issue that most Turks already acknowledge and where the denial is still mainly present only in official government channels? Obama should make all Turks pay!


Pop modern history quiz time.

1. True or False. China has, over the last three decades, seen an increase in economic, social, and healthcare quality, notably as relations improved after Nixon's historic trip there.
   .
2. The USSR fell because: A. increasing military spending by the United States cowed the USSR into collapse; B. 'Glasnost' and the nuclear arms treaty signed by the leaders of the USA and USSR led to increased commerce and more desire for a capitalist market under an inflated bureaucracy; C. the Mighty Reagan flexed his muscles, and with a roaring "tear this wall down!" brought the USSR to their pinko knees.
   .
3. True or False. Due to the US policy of zero diplomatic engagement, the people of North Korea, Cuba, and Iran are all better off than they were 25 years ago.

Any grade under 70% is a failing grade on this test. Good luck.

 

[Ryokan]

The official Turkish stand on this issue is something they should be ashamed of, but Cisco has a point. It was done before the birth of the modern democratic state of Turkey. None of those involved are alive anymore. At one point we have to let history become history.

 

[scissorhands]

How dare Obama not go back in time and save each and every one of the Armenians from slaughter personally?

Making fun out of the genocide of a people, isnt funny.

How dare Obama not demand another sovereign nation change all of their history books over an issue that most Turks already acknowledge and where the denial is still mainly present only in official government channels? Obama should make all Turks pay!

Most Turks do not acknowledge the genocide, Obama is helping with that.

 

[Ryokan]

The countries involved werent at war so "peace today" isnt really the point..?

Expecting an apology for a whole generation of your ancestors being wiped out in a genocide is quite an important step to normalising relations though.
Id expect you would feel similarly, if it was your ancestors history being swept under the carpet.

If you read the article, you'd see that Turkish-Armenian relations are being improved, and they've been improving steadily over the past few years.

It's time to let the past be the past, let history be history, and embrace the now and the future.

 

[scissorhands]

If you read the article, you'd see that Turkish-Armenian relations are being improved, and they've been improving steadily over the past few years.

It's time to let the past be the past, let history be history, and embrace the now and the future.

If you had read any of the comments from the Armenian diaspora and from the population there, you would realise that genocide denial doesnt cut it, apart from in political circles and those people likely to gain from such a whitewash.
Nobel Peace prizes are cheap these days.

 

[GreNME]

Making fun out of the genocide of a people, isnt funny.

If that's what I were making fun of, you'd have a point.

Most Turks do not acknowledge the genocide, Obama is helping with that.

Explain how "Obama is helping with that," please.

I see you've not taken the pop quiz. I guess I'll have to grade you at 0%, a failing grade.

 

[scissorhands]

If that's what I were making fun of, you'd have a point.

Thats exactly what you were making fun of.

Explain how "Obama is helping with that," please.

By giving Turkeys genocide denial some legitimacy by encouraging the passing of this agreement.
Thats not too hard to work out, is it?

I see you've not taken the pop quiz. I guess I'll have to grade you at 0%, a failing grade.

You failed the moment you thought it was even a vaguely interesting idea to post that crap.
You should take the genocide of people a bit more seriously.
They may have been your relatives.

 

[Ryokan]

If you had read any of the comments from the Armenian diaspora and from the population there, you would realise that genocide denial doesnt cut it, apart from in political circles and those people likely to gain from such a whitewash.
Nobel Peace prizes are cheap these days.

Since I see you're from the UK, and since you seem to be so hung up on historical atrocities, let me, as a Norwegian, say I'm truly sorry about the Lindisfarne massacre. I know you must be angry that there has been no official apology from the Norwegian government.

Although, of course, the current Norwegian state had nothing to do with the Lindisfarne massacre, since the modern Norwegian state hadn't been founded and, well, none of those involved are still alive. Sort of like the Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Empire, but let's not let that stand in the way of a good grudge. Let's look backwards instead of forward, I'm sure that will lead to a better future.

Now excuse me, I'm off to rage about those damn Swedes who occupied Norway a bit over hundred years ago. Damn Swedes, they've never apologized for it!

 

[scissorhands]

Since I see you're from the UK, and since you seem to be so hung up on historical atrocities, let me, as a Norwegian, say I'm truly sorry about the Lindisfarne massacre. I know you must be angry that there has been no official apology from the Norwegian government.

Although, of course, the current Norwegian state had nothing to do with the Lindisfarne massacre, since the modern Norwegian state hadn't been founded and, well, none of those involved are still alive. Sort of like the Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Empire, but let's not let that stand in the way of a good grudge. Let's look backwards instead of forward, I'm sure that will lead to a better future.

Now excuse me, I'm off to rage about those damn Swedes who occupied Norway a bit over hundred years ago. Damn Swedes, they've never apologized for it!

Joker.
Who has no understanding of the deep and bitter divisions between Turkey and Armenia over a GENOCIDE of over 1.5 MILLION PEOPLE that happened in their grandparents generation.
I expect the Swedes had you all marched to Finland and let you die along the way?

Edited by LibraryLady: 

Edited for civility

 

[cisco]

The countries involved werent at war so "peace today" isnt really the point..?

Does "peace" only mean "not war" to you? So Iran and Israel are at peace?

If you had read any of the comments from the Armenian diaspora and from the population there . . .

If you read comments on lots of news stories here you'd probably think most Americans believe in 9/11 treuth. Opinions that are self-selecting are usually misleading.

 

[GreNME]

Thats exactly what you were making fun of.

You're very poor at mind reading. I was making fun of your faulty logic. Some advice: telling me what I am and am not commenting on does not give you good odds in terms of credibility.

By giving Turkeys genocide denial some legitimacy by encouraging the passing of this agreement.
Thats not too hard to work out, is it?

Except for the part where you didn't show that Obama in any way legitimized Turkey's denial, it's not difficult at all to work out.

Seriously, would you really like to play guilt-by-association on this matter? Do you really see the complete failure you're setting yourself up for, particularly posting from the UK?

You failed the moment you thought it was even a vaguely interesting idea to post that crap.

Well, I failed at showing you what is actually going on diplomatically, it seems. You can take all the credit for that failure on my part, since they are your arguments from ignorance.

You should take the genocide of people a bit more seriously.
They may have been your relatives.

How do you know some of them aren't? I suppose adding appeals to emotion to your list of failures so far in the thread doesn't really change anything, as you have yet to provide any actual argument supporting your assertion that Obama has in any way legitimized Turkey's denial.

 

[Madalch]

Well, isn't the US president supposed to pardon Turkey at Thanksgiving?

Okay, it may only be Thanksgiving up north, but.....

 

[quixotecoyote]

Armenia signed the normalization too. Does that mean Amernia is complicit in covering up the genocide?

 

[Peephole]

How dare Obama betray the Armenians by supporting something the Armenians want!

Wait, what?

 

[Ryokan]

I also believe that normalizing relations, and exchanging diplomats, is far more likely to result in the Turks 'owning up' than continued hostilities. And I believe both Turkish and Armenian leadership agrees with that, hence the improved relations the last few years, culminating in this new treaty.

 

[FireGarden]

It's time to let the past be the past, let history be history, and embrace the now and the future.

Those are different things. What you might have meant was "Let history (the study of the past) be whatever is convenient."


ETA:

I also believe that normalizing relations, and exchanging diplomats, is far more likely to result in the Turks 'owning up' than continued hostilities. And I believe both Turkish and Armenian leadership agrees with that, hence the improved relations the last few years, culminating in this new treaty.

I see what you might have meant.

 

[FireGarden]

Armenia signed the normalization too. Does that mean Amernia is complicit in covering up the genocide?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8299712.stm

The accord has been met by protests in Armenia, where many people say it does not fully address the 1915 killing of hundreds of thousands of Armenians.

[...] Armenia wants Turkey to recognise the killings as an act of genocide, but successive Turkish governments have refused to do so.

The agreement calls for a joint commission of independent historians to study the genocide issue.

So it doesn't look like people have agreed to bury the past. They've agreed to let historians study it.

I understand why some Armenians might be concerned that nothing will come of these studies. But maybe they should trust their government to make sure the historians really are independent.