• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Nuclear Hazard, yells STYRGE!

Tapio

Muse
Tapio
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
756
Hi!

I'd like to hear some thoughts of the claims made here:

STYRGE(roll down for English text)

The guys who've put the site up are part of the most prominent anti-Nuclear Power people in Finland, and getting notably extensive support from all around. For a long time I've felt annoyed by how they handle their activism. After receiving their latest email update I got a boost to start an actual discussion with these people about it. But I need to get my facts straight first.

I think their emotionally-biased stuff is quite revolting, as are the movies they're advertising. Ideas regarding that side are plenty. But as a layman I can't say anything of the actual data and charts they provide. So critique on the alleged "facts" is something I'd be interested in hearing (of course with evidence/sources supporting the critique).

All help appreciated!

ETA: If there's something you'd like me to translate in order for you to get a more comprehensive picture, I'd be happy to do it.
 
Last edited:
Wow, that's such a concentrated collection of BS that it would take a year just to catalog it.

But starting with their photos of 'beta flare', it looks like they have enhanced various pictures taken at sunset in selected color channels to the point of saturation, to bring out sunset colors reflected off clouds. What they don't supply are pictures taken at night, during which visible radiation emitted by these 'beta flares' would presumable be even more visible. Neither do they provide control pictures taken over similar non-nuclear facilities.
 
dahduh said:
Wow, that's such a concentrated collection of BS that it would take a year just to catalog it.
Click to expand...

Exactly. :rolleyes: That's why I'd like to see them, and their thousands of advocates given something real to chew on. It's not like people are idiots, they just don't know...you know...

Thanks for your comment!
 
Just two nice quotes...

A serious threat to all life arises from the very physical nature of radiation as it doesn't mysteriously disappear or get turned into heat. Instead, it accumulates into the environment.
Click to expand...

Right,then how does it come that land around older czech nucelar plant is not deserted.How does it come that there is not significantly increased number of illnesses...

The amount of rainfall is dramatically decreased in the areas containing nuclear power. Even some 100 km radius can receive 30% less rain than it used to! It is shockin especially when the global warming should have increased rainfall the same amount.
Click to expand...
And this is just better. Somehow it is not true for land around czech reactors.
Why is that? :rolleyes:

I used "local" examples as one reactor is of older design and one heavly upgraded during construciton by USA technology.

But I didn't went much further... (brain wanted to take spaceship to moon)
 
What in the world is a "beta flare"?

EDIT: <LOL> Wow, I just checked out the site. It is *really* special. Get this:

"The name comes from the main cause for the phenomenon which is free neutrons decaying into protons and electrons."

I'd love to hear their explanation for neutrons in the atom's nucleus.
 
Last edited:
"That's why nuclear power plant even has a chimney; for fierce ventilation, to get rid of ions and excess neutrons within their quarter-an-hour lifetime. If the air flow stops, everyone inside the powerplant would die in 15 minutes or so. "

I take it they don't know what a cooling tower is? Oddly enough, I didn't think ventilation could influence the path of a neutron...
 
Well they DO have chimneys. I was responsible for designing a system to read out the monitors that say when radionuclide noble gas isotopes are being emitted and declaring site alerts and etc.

Only in a core damage situation would there be much of anything for that system to do.

The vent gas is passed over a charcoal bed and that is sufficient to hold most effluents long enough for them to decay (they have a very short half-life) and if there WERE a major event the stack flow would be shut down so that major amounts of gas would not be emitted.

The stack is how they provide ventilation to the containment building proper.

What is usually emitted is just filtered clean air.
 
Last edited:
wackyvorlon said:
"The name comes from the main cause for the phenomenon which is free neutrons decaying into protons and electrons."

I'd love to hear their explanation for neutrons in the atom's nucleus.
Click to expand...

No, that's one of very few things on that page that's actually correct. Free neutrons beta decay with a ~10 minute half-life.

Neutrons in a stable nucleus do not decay because it's not energetically favourable to turn a neutron into a proton and kick out an electron for one reason or another(look at the semi-empirical mass formula and liquid drop model of the nucleus for some more insight into why that is. Coloumb repulsion, Pauli energy and pairing energy are the relevant terms).

If you have too many neutrons in a nucleus the usual decay mode is beta-, just like with free neutrons.
 
Last edited:
This is just sooooooooo wrong on so many levels. Beta flare??? Neutrons going up the waste gas stack...not even possible to imagine a scenario where that could happen.

The whole thing is just random words with no scientific meaning.

ON the "fierce ventillation" thing.

The containment on a nuke plant is essentially a closed system--although water, steam and air systems do go through walls. Steam goes out to the turbine, water is returned to the steam generators...cooling water is sent to components....air to operate valves...etc.

Cooling water is used to cool air handlers on the inside which cools the air. Occassionally, pressure will build up in containment and it needs to be "burped"...For this--as Ben Burch pointed out--it goes through filters and sent to atmosphere...but it is only operated for a few hours during a year period. Before a shutdown, the ventillation system with the charcol filters is operated for a period of time to reduce any airborne radioactive particles in containment. It makes it safe for entry to refuel...now, the levels of airborne in containment are less than in a granite building and probably most homes that are build on large granite deposits.

There are other ventillation systems to keep the plant in reasonable temperature and humidity.

If you "lose" any ventillation system, well not much happens. Inside containment, there are redundant systems and if one fails you have the other to keep things cool to either shutdown or do repairs. Loss of ventillation in a plant is just not a big deal.

The waste gas system has waste gas stack..it is used to disperse waste gas from plant operations. It will have some noble gases, hydrogen and other gases stripped out of the reactor coolant. It is held in storage tanks to decay and then released up the stack. Not really an issue.

I just can't understand the thought process in someone's mind--is it stupidity and delusion, or just lying?

glenn
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your responses everyone!

I'd definitely want to hear more. The more detailed on why/how the better. I'll make a summary of what's been written now and fast-preview it here before sending the questions to the Finnish guys. Might take a couple days...also, I'd better contact the local experts on this too.

I'm quite annoyed right now, because if it's true that they fail to present this simple, basic stuff in an according manner, how much more wrong will they be regarding the stuff requiring real expertise. Remember these are one of the MAIN anti-Nuke people in Finland...

Thanks again!
 
Hindmost,

In my plants, IIRC after all these years, the containment blowers were generally run throughout fueling/maintenance to maintain a slight negative pressure in the containment.

The SPNG and WRGM never registered anything of note the whole time I was attached to that project.

-Ben
 
BenBurch said:
Hindmost,

In my plants, IIRC after all these years, the containment blowers were generally run throughout fueling/maintenance to maintain a slight negative pressure in the containment.

The SPNG and WRGM never registered anything of note the whole time I was attached to that project.

-Ben
Click to expand...

Depends on the plant. Some have an annulus outside containment but inside the shield wall that run negative pressure. Some run a negative pressure in containment--but I am not a containment expert.

I have seen pressure build up in the can from the instrument air for valves. I know tech specs typically allow about 90 hours of burp time a year.

The plant I am working on now has two systems: one for clean up of airborne and to do the integrated leak rate stuff. The second one is just for cooling. However, I don't know if it runs at negative pressure...it just runs chill water into the can and the air units are all inside--so I don't see how it could keep the pressure negative. The cleanup system is only to prepare for shutdown. ( I don't work on ventilation much)

Respirators are rarely needed in contaiment anymore...they really know how to prep the plant before an outage.

glenn
 
Awesome thread.
I'm trying my hand at dissecting that website to learn more about nuclear energy since it's something I've been interested in lately. I'll post it here if I ever feel confident about my facts and understanding.

FWIW, that site is utter BS from the very first sentence. 1 sentence, 3 statements, all totally wrong.
 
Last edited:
ChrisC said:
Awesome thread.
I'm trying my hand at dissecting that website to learn more about nuclear energy since it's something I've been interested in lately. I'll post it here if I ever feel confident about my facts and understanding.
Click to expand...

Great! I do want to encourage you to post your thoughts regardless, since this seems to be a good place to check those facts...it's all part of the (jr)E(f)ducational process :)

I'm not going to take any posts here as straight forward facts without triple-checking them. But I do enjoy the direction we're moving towards...keep 'em coming!
 
Great thread Tapio, I hope members here can shine some much needed light on the issues and fears that many people share because of information resources like STYRGE website.
 
Here's a quoted question from the "beta-flare" pictures.

There is definitely something coming out, something much more hazardous than the claimed room temperature air. C'mon, why else would you need a 100m high ventilation pipe?
Click to expand...

Could somebody shed light on this? This kind of simple questions are the kind I'd like to start addressing first...
 
Klimax said:
Right,then how does it come that land around older czech nucelar plant is not deserted.How does it come that there is not significantly increased number of illnesses...
Click to expand...

Good points. Do you have any reliable source for these?
 
Glenn and BenBurch, since you seem to have true knowledge on this topic, I'd like to translate some of your points for the styrge-guys. But first I need to check your given info...what's your background on the subject, how do you know this stuff? Can you lead me to a source where I could verify what you said?

Don't mean to sound impose on you, but I don't want to start playing their games of ambiguous claims. I think it's better to stick to confirmed facts from the start. That's the only way I see we might make an actual differnence = educate people more.

Thanks!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom