Now Hydrogen fuel is bad too!

[RichardR]

Hydrogen fuel could disturb the Ozone layer:

Their study says that if hydrogen fuel replaced fossil fuels entirely it could be expected that 10 percent to 20 percent of the hydrogen would leak from pipelines, storage facilities, processing plants and fuel cells in cars and at power plants.

Because hydrogen readily travels skyward, the researchers estimated that its increased use could lead to as much as a tripling of hydrogen molecules -- both manmade and from natural sources -- going into the stratosphere, where it would oxidize and form water.

"This would result in cooling of the lower stratosphere and the disturbance of ozone chemistry," the researchers wrote, resulting in bigger and longer-lasting ozone "holes" in both the Arctic and Antarctic regions, where drops in ozone levels have been recorded over the past 20 years. They estimated that ozone depletion could be as much as 8 percent.

The loss of some of the Earth's ozone layer is of concern because ozone blocks much of the sun's ultraviolet light, which over time can lead to skin cancer, cataracts and other problems in humans.

Just when you thought it was safe...

 

[MRC_Hans]

They lost me there How will escaped hydrogen lead to cooling ? When hydrogen combines with water, it is chemically equivalent to burning it, so it will release heat. Anyhow, I never heard of anybody expecting hydrogen to entirely replace fossil fuels in any foreseeable future. And the leakage figure must be based on current technology; as 10-15% loss is VERY expensive, I would expect that issue to be addressed with new technology.

But it is always sobering to remember that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Hans

 

[Larspeart]

You know, this Ozone layer thing is starting to get on my nerves.

Seems to me like it is more trouble then it is worth!

 

[aggle_rithm]

I never heard of anybody expecting hydrogen to entirely replace fossil fuels in any foreseeable future.

Hans

Especially since fossil fuels must be burned to extract the hydrogen.

 

[jj]

Especially since fossil fuels must be burned to extract the hydrogen.

No, a sensible, giant-scale nuclear power system suffices, is more efficient, causes less waste heat, less environmental damage, etc, etc.

And if we REPROCESS our nuclear "waste" we use up much more of the total available energy, too. Sheesh, we treat this stuff so stupidly!

 

[arcticpenguin]

They lost me there How will escaped hydrogen lead to cooling ? When hydrogen combines with water, it is chemically equivalent to burning it, so it will release heat.

They are not talking about the heat of reaction, they are talking about the effect of absorbing or reflecting sunlight.

 

[Beanbag]

They lost me there How will escaped hydrogen lead to cooling ? When hydrogen combines with water, it is chemically equivalent to burning it, so it will release heat. Anyhow, I never heard of anybody expecting hydrogen to entirely replace fossil fuels in any foreseeable future. And the leakage figure must be based on current technology; as 10-15% loss is VERY expensive, I would expect that issue to be addressed with new technology.

But it is always sobering to remember that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Hans

I wonder about the 10-15% figure myself.Yes, hydrogen is a light gas, and tends to wander out of containment thru small openings. If you look at the industrial settings for handling other gaseous products (oxygen, argon, acetylene, nitrogen, etc), if they were losing 10-15% of their product, they'd go broke. The figure "10 to 15%" seems a little too convenient, like somebody just reached up and pulled it out of thin air (no pun). I'd like to know what they based it on.

Regards;
Beanbag

 

[Diamond]

The claim is that hydrogen would react rather vigorously with atmospheric ozone, depleting it, rather like chlorine-based CFCs currently doing the job now.

Hydrogen is difficult to store completely effectively, so any hydrogen-based fuelling would have to be extremely careful to cut down the escape to a minimum.

 

[aggle_rithm]

No, a sensible, giant-scale nuclear power system suffices, is more efficient, causes less waste heat, less environmental damage, etc, etc.

And if we REPROCESS our nuclear "waste" we use up much more of the total available energy, too. Sheesh, we treat this stuff so stupidly!

Right, but it's not a question of what is the best method to extract the hydrogen, but what method is most LIKELY to be used. And that's fossil fuels.

 

[Guest]

I'm boycotting hydrogen. That and Nestle.

-Who

 

[Soapy Sam]

Why would leaking hydrogen be more likely to oxidise in the stratosphere than in the troposphere (where most atmospheric oxygen is)?

How about the following technical fix? All hydrogen storage and transmission facilities will have a coating of finely divided platinum.
Each shall also be fitted with a pilot light. This will ensure immediate combustion of leaking gas.

The pilot light will be supplied with its own H2 supply generated by electrolysis of water using current provided by steam turbines.
The turbines will be powered by the escaping hydrogen.

Simple.

 

[gnome]

Isn't ozone in lower parts of the atmosphere actually considered a pollutant?

This hydrogen problem might HELP in some ways...

Of course, please correct me if I'm wrong. I've spent much time imagining ways to get the polluted ozone up in the ozone layer where we need it.

 

[Captain_Snort]

Hydrogen distibution systems are a bit tricky (use of metal on metal seems, corrosion problems etc), hence in my last lab I removed all the hydrogen pipes and replaced with an on demand hydrogen production unit (portable). 15-20% escaping is a bit of a high figure (also quite a explosively dangerous figure).


With the amount probably envisaged being used in the report, the figure would be of concern.

The thing is CFC's act as a site for the destruction of ozone and remain intact until eventually broken down, effecting many (estimated in the thousands) ozone molecules, whereas hydrogen will be a 1 shot effect with each molecule of H2 effecting one molecule of O3.

 

[DrMatt]

You know, this Ozone layer thing is starting to get on my nerves.

Seems to me like it is more trouble then it is worth!

Complain to our ancestors right about the time when blue-green algae came into existence!