Now a PM from Randi

Common sense says that if you have a data base of 27,000 people who have an interest in skepticism, you would be foolish not to reach out to them to ask for donations.

You get the emails and delete them. I don't get what the big deal is. LOL

No, you obviously don't.

Until you actually understand what other people are saying why not just refrain from dismissing their concerns out of hand?

I assure you it is very easy for me to simply delete or ignore any messages from the JREF. And that will happen sooner or later if they end up being too annoying for me otherwise. The result, however, is that I'll never be donating again simply because I will be very effective in not ever seeing any of the reminders.

I would assume that this is not what the JREF wants. Maybe I am wrong, though.
 
There are about what 10 people in this thread whining about it. I do understand that it's annoying and I get the deal that it does feel like hitting us up for money. But it's not that big of a deal. For those of you that it is, I can assure you that Randi has probably made a ton of money through donations because of this effort. I would have definitely donated if I had money in my paypal account at the time.

So I'm sorry the dozen or so of you are upset. If it was as bad as you say it is, I doubt they'd get any donations.

I suppose what I find annoying is the way people can't seem to separate their personal feelings from it being a "bad thing." It was a smart business move. Period the end. Sorry you got so upset and won't donate.
 
No, you obviously don't.

Until you actually understand what other people are saying why not just refrain from dismissing their concerns out of hand?

I assure you it is very easy for me to simply delete or ignore any messages from the JREF. And that will happen sooner or later if they end up being too annoying for me otherwise. The result, however, is that I'll never be donating again simply because I will be very effective in not ever seeing any of the reminders.

I would assume that this is not what the JREF wants. Maybe I am wrong, though.

Others will donate. This stuff works. That's why charities do it.
 
Common sense says that if you have a data base of 27,000 people who have an interest in skepticism, you would be foolish not to reach out to them to ask for donations.

You get the emails and delete them. I don't get what the big deal is. LOL

I don't get it either. I read it, I said no, I moved on.

I don't understand how people can get so indignant about a free service with no member obligations (other than forum rules).

Everyone asks for money. In my day-to-day life, this is by far one of the least obnoxious or intrusive organizations I've seen.
 
I can assure you that Randi has probably made a ton of money through donations because of this effort.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least--

I suppose what I find annoying is the way people can't seem to separate their personal feelings from it being a "bad thing." It was a smart business move. Period the end. Sorry you got so upset and won't donate.

LOL! I understand that the JREF needs to raise money. The thing I don't like about the PM is its slimey wording and tone. It's so similar to that commonly seen in deceptive advertising these days (Think 100% PURE Gold clad coins and the like). Sure, it works, but somehow I expect better from the JREF. Alas, it seems that even here on the JREF forum, arguably the best skeptical forum going, image and integrity take a back seat to "the best-practices in the field of nonprofit" fundraising. I guess I just have to learn to love the slime! :)
 
Others will donate. This stuff works. That's why charities do it.
It does.

I think as a whole we are a group of people that are impossible to please. "My duties preclude me from chatting about skepticism" gets interpreted as "I don't care about you except as a revenue source". "I have a cold and am zonked out" becomes "you petty, insignificant creatures - leave me alone now and forever". :boggled:

ETA: With that said, I don't see the problem with passing on feedback. Anything that smacks of "best practices" gets automatically discarded by me. The wordy/chatty email, the ps with an extra offer, reads like the stuff I get in the mail every day and discard without a second thought. I won't argue whether that sort of letter brings in more donations than other formats - it is not my field. All I can say is that after the last round of emails I unsubscribed, not out of pique, but because I wouldn't be responding anyway, so why receive the emails? That's certainly worth knowing, even if it turns out the current method is the best for JREF.
 
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Just got a PM about buying 2 Viagra for $99.90 and getting a free penis stretcher with the JREF logo on it. Anyone else got it ?
 
I suppose what I find annoying is the way people can't seem to separate their personal feelings from it being a "bad thing." It was a smart business move. Period the end. Sorry you got so upset and won't donate.

Maybe a couple of the complaints can be construed as objecting to any sort of fundraising outreach, but most of us are pointing out why we think the JREF's approach is decidedly suboptimal. It's annoying to have that feedback dismissed as emotional "whining."

I don't mind being hit up for money by a cause I've supported in the past. I don't mind getting the emails and PMs, and I can easily delete them.

And for all the talk about "best practices," other organizations do it better. The National Center for Science Education (an organization whose supporters probably overlap with the JREF's somewhat) contacts me about four times a year. Yes, it contains a request for donations, but that comes at the end of a report of what they've been doing and what they hope to do. I'm a little annoyed at the NCSE for their sucking up to religion, but I'm thinking of overlooking that and cutting them another check because they make their case well.

My alma maters hit me up for money all the time, and I don't object to them doing it (as long as it's not by phone!). But they make sure that's not the only time I hear from them and it's not the sole message when they do ask. They send out alumni publications, brag about specific accomplishments of their students and faculty, and talk about what capital projects they have in mind for the future.

I try to cut the JREF a little slack because it's a small organization, and one that seems to be trying to make the transition from an organization that provides a platform for Randi (which is worthy, but not sustainable long-term) to being an organization that is less dependent on Randi personally and more about carrying forward his work and (eventually) his legacy.

I think DJ is probably making some progress in that area, though it's hard to tell. I just remain baffled at the attitude that he seems to be perpetuating that the Forum is just some kindness that the JREF deigns to provide us all. I would think that most organizations would love to have an active web community of people at least broadly sympathetic to the organization's goals. If the Forum and the JREF have drifted apart over the years, that's not surprising considering that the JREF's main presence in the Forum over those years has been to step in and announce new, stricter rules because the Forum was embarrassing the JREF in some way. Even if all of those measures were necessary, it shouldn't have been the primary interaction between the two. I wish DJ was more interested in fixing that relationship rather than just shrugging and accepting it as an unchangeable fact.
 
I don't think we can come to a conclusion about how worthwhile these emails and PMs are for the foundation based on the number of complaints in these kinds of threads. Only the people with access to the donation figures can work that out.
 
Well, it seems pretty obvious the foundation doesn't care about the forum. Why should the forum care about the foundation?

Seriously? I think we established that "the forum" doesn't really care about the foundation. Only 635-ish people are members of the JREF, and I would suspect, from people I know personally who are members, many of them never come to the forum. There are nearly 3000 active forum participants, and 28,000 total members.

I get monthly paper letters from CSI's various branches, a monthly appeal from my local Dog Rescue club, quarterly notes from NCSE, monthly appeals from my college alma mater, Scouting organization, cancer societies, the Skeptic Society, the juvenile diabetes foundation, and many others. I donate to all of these, as I am able - some years more, some years less, but I don't get so ANGRY that they send me requests. How else are they supposed to raise money? I also get a lot of ads to sell me things, which bothers me more. You know, invitations to invest money I don't have, little pills to enlarge appendices I don't possess, and all the endless rescue attempts for Nigerian royal families.

Communication is key, and repetition is important even for those who wish to donate, especially towards the end of the year. It's really easy to ignore the ads, if you are not interested.
 
Dunstan: Good points, which I'll address:

1. I am happy to say that our approach to fundraising, while maybe not preferable to a some forumites for reasons much discussed in this thread, has generated planned results. I'll refer you to my earlier post in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7887077&postcount=37

The JREF had for many years ran substantial deficits (some years surpassing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a given year) and when I came aboard as president, we reorganized in order to eliminate those deficits, even while expanding programs. Part of the reorganization included the need to raise money from new donors. In 2010, I am happy to say that we had a 42% increase in donations and memberships over 2009 and this year so far we have had around a 25% increase over 2010's donations and memberships, and a 39% increase in the number of donations and memberships this year over last year, which is a positive trend. The increase in support has allowed us to accomplish more to advance skepticism than ever before.

2. In our monthly email newsletter, as well as at the link at the banner at the top of the forum, and regular updates on randi.org (on which the forum is hosted) we regularly outline both specific accomplishments as well as what projects we plan for the future. We are proud of our work promoting skepticism in the media and at the grassroots and in the classroom, even as we plan for doing more in the future, knowing that the work is never done.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/1471

3. I do not believe the forum and the JREF have "drifted apart over the years." I believe the JREF is more supportive of the forum now in some ways than ever before: we promote it in our new printed brochures, tabling banners, in the TAM printed program, and with sponsor table space at TAM, for instance, in addition to paying the not inconsiderable hosting and administrative costs. Some members of the forum will not feel inclined to support the important work we do, and that is their prerogative. Others will become increasingly enthused at our good work and get more involved. In any event, we continue to provide this discussion forum as a way to further support and foster the online skeptics community and because it is a valuable online resources of skeptical information on our subjects of concern.

D.J.
 
I think DJ is probably making some progress in that area, though it's hard to tell. I just remain baffled at the attitude that he seems to be perpetuating that the Forum is just some kindness that the JREF deigns to provide us all. I would think that most organizations would love to have an active web community of people at least broadly sympathetic to the organization's goals. If the Forum and the JREF have drifted apart over the years, that's not surprising considering that the JREF's main presence in the Forum over those years has been to step in and announce new, stricter rules because the Forum was embarrassing the JREF in some way. Even if all of those measures were necessary, it shouldn't have been the primary interaction between the two. I wish DJ was more interested in fixing that relationship rather than just shrugging and accepting it as an unchangeable fact.

Absolutely. It's fair that we should show them our appreciation (I have!); it wouldn't hurt us if they showed us some appreciation also. Or if at least, now and then, they showed they care. Small things, like a "I'm sorry" when someone passes away, the occasional "congrats"..., that is, any display that DJ, Randi and others in the organization - who are they? - care. This is, after all, a big community of skeptics!

As admins, Darat and Lisa participate a lot, and I admire the fact that they have not acquired a snobbish or blasé attitude towards the forum. But they're part of "us", the community, not part of "them", the JREF.
 
Yes I got two.
I'm in the UK anyway , with negative income, but what's this sudden urgency to be donate by the end of the year to double contributions? Is this a US tax thing? Isn't waiting til 2 days to go leaving it a bit late? Feels like one of those double glazing door to door salesmen "this offer is only valid for today" things -


I pretty much agree with with Dunstan has said. It 's partly also because of the often "detached" if not slightly hostile relationship the JREF has with the forum, Didn't Randi refer to members as "barking dogs" or similar a few years back? So the only mention he has made of the forum I recall is that which was a criticism - as an annoyance ?

And as mentioned debate on Swift comments are separated from the forum . Why have to register to comment on Swift articles - why not link to the forum directly?
It almost looks like Swift/JREF is embarrassed and distancing itself from it.
Until the members mailing list comes in useful.....
 
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For me, being used to pretty much nothing from JREF, getting all these appeals on top of each other makes it feel as if the JREF sky is falling. But, it seems everything is OK, and this is merely a new fundraising approach. Once this becomes normal, well, it will be normal.

I think the suggestions made about styles and types of communication are worthwhile, and hope the powers that be incorporate the ideas into the process.

These are JREF's forums. I am rather shocked (yes, shocked!) that Mr. Grothe, the JREF President, has clearly indicated his complete lack of interest in the forums. To Mr. Grothe, these forums are unimportant. By extension, we are unimportant. Except when it comes to fundraising. This, I think, is the core of the angst being shown.

If Mr. Grothe and his staff had even a token presence on the forums, perhaps an investment of 15 minutes A WEEK making the odd comment or observation, it would go a long way to building a personal link to every member here. The forums would SEEM to matter. We, by extension, would seem to matter to the JREF.
 
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I too find the "too busy to post on the forum" Comment a bit hard to accept. There are plenty of busy people on the forum. I get the impression that it's viewed as a somewhat juvenile sideline by the JREF hierarchy.
 
1. I am happy to say that our approach to fundraising, while maybe not preferable to a some forumites for reasons much discussed in this thread, has generated planned results.

Wow! Very impressive!

Excuse me now, I have to write some PMs.
 
Greater fool, and lionking, Any of JREF's staffers are more than welcome to comment on the forum as they are interested, but considering their workload, I can't take them away from other duties to spend the amount of time on the forum that previous staffers may have. Brian Thompson, JREF outreach coordinator, posts here occasionally, I believe. As we have said many times, we appreciate the volunteer moderators' work in running the forum, but as a small nonprofit, we lack the resources to pay someone to do so. Online forums can be fun, and a great way to find people of like-mind. Indeed, this is one of the reasons JREF supports this forum. I myself lurk a lot on a couple of online forums on my off hours, including this one (a favorite is Neogaf).
 
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