nothing personal, but NO TO NADER et al

varwoche

Penultimate Amazing
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Every 4 years I dread THE DREADED ELECTION -- the one that finally shifts the supreme court to Scalia/Thomas.

Though bullets have been dodged in the past, this time it's for real. It is assumed there will be THREE appointments in the next term. If you care about women's rights, and if you care about science being taught in science classes, and if you care about privacy, you will do what you can to see that Bush is not re-elected.

Picture this: President Bush, Chief Justice Scalia, Speaker Delay, and a court that has been cast for a generation.

I urge anyone considerating a 3rd party candidate not to.

varwoche

P.S. I forgot to mention your friend and mine, good old talk-in-toungues Ashcroft.
 
One of the arguments for the preferential voting system used in Australia. You can register your protest vote for the obscure candidate you really want AND not automatically make it a vote for the people you least want to win.

In this system, you number the votes from 1 to however many candidates are on the slip. Nothing is perfect, and the preferential system has it's faults, but it is not as bad as the American system.
 
varwoche said:
Every 4 years I dread THE DREADED ELECTION -- the one that finally shifts the supreme court to Scalia/Thomas.

Though bullets have been dodged in the past, this time it's for real. It is assumed there will be THREE appointments in the next term. If you care about women's rights, and if you care about science being taught in science classes, and if you care about privacy, you will do what you can to see that Bush is not re-elected.

Picture this: President Bush, Chief Justice Scalia, Speaker Delay, and a court that has been cast for a generation.

I urge anyone considerating a 3rd party candidate not to.

varwoche

P.S. I forgot to mention your friend and mine, good old talk-in-toungues Ashcroft.
This is a mantra of mine. I get tired though of trying to explain the two party system (and the value of it). I also get tired of trying to explain how although voting for the lesser of two evils isn't perfect, if you don't you get......duh.
Some people are intent on a sharp stick in the eye.

Welcome to the board by the way.
 
I was fascinated by the "Speaking in Tongues" reference, so thusly I googled:

"This is not the first time Mr Ashcroft's subordinates have realised that this attorney general is unlike ordinary politicians. Each time he has been sworn in to political office, he is anointed with cooking oil (in the manner of King David, as he points out in his memoirs Lessons from a Father to His Son).

When Mr Ashcroft was in the Senate, the duty was performed by his father, a senior minister in a church specialising in speaking in tongues, the Pentecostal Assemblies of God. When he became attorney general, Clarence Thomas, a supreme court justice, did the honours.
.....

Perhaps the most bizarre wrinkle in the Ashcroft enigma emerged in November when Andrew Tobias, the Democratic Party treasurer and a financial writer, published an article on his website accusing the attorney general of harbouring superstitions about tabby cats.

According to the Tobias article, advance teams for an Ashcroft visit to the US embassy in the Hague asked anxiously if there were tabby cats (or calico cats as they are known in the US) on the premises.

"Their boss, they explained, believes calico cats are signs of the devil," Mr Tobias reported.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,7369,661458,00.html

That, of course, is only the tip of the iceberg, but a subject for a different thread.
 
subgenius said:
This is not the first time Mr Ashcroft's subordinates have realised that this attorney general is unlike ordinary politicians. Each time he has been sworn in to political office, he is anointed with cooking oil

And all along I thought he was just slimy.
 
varwoche said:
Every 4 years I dread THE DREADED ELECTION -- the one that finally shifts the supreme court to Scalia/Thomas.

Though bullets have been dodged in the past, this time it's for real. It is assumed there will be THREE appointments in the next term. If you care about women's rights, and if you care about science being taught in science classes, and if you care about privacy, you will do what you can to see that Bush is not re-elected.

Picture this: President Bush, Chief Justice Scalia, Speaker Delay, and a court that has been cast for a generation.

I urge anyone considerating a 3rd party candidate not to.

varwoche

P.S. I forgot to mention your friend and mine, good old talk-in-toungues Ashcroft.

By the same logic, you should encourage third parties of the right.

Go, Pat, go!
 
After voting for years against the candidates I disliked the most, I decided in 2000 to vote for the candidate I wanted for a change.

After all, Republicans and Democrats are all the same in the end, right?

Every day since Nov 2000 has been a hammer to my head going WRONG, WRONG, WRONG...
 
Re: Re: nothing personal, but NO TO NADER et al

> By the same logic, you should encourage third parties of
> the right.
> Go, Pat, go

You bet!! I have no doubt that the we are indebted to Perot.

varwoche
 
varwoche said:
Every 4 years I dread THE DREADED ELECTION -- the one that finally shifts the supreme court to Scalia/Thomas.

Though bullets have been dodged in the past, this time it's for real. It is assumed there will be THREE appointments in the next term. If you care about women's rights, and if you care about science being taught in science classes, and if you care about privacy, you will do what you can to see that Bush is not re-elected.

Picture this: President Bush, Chief Justice Scalia, Speaker Delay, and a court that has been cast for a generation.

I urge anyone considerating a 3rd party candidate not to.

varwoche

P.S. I forgot to mention your friend and mine, good old talk-in-toungues Ashcroft.


FOX NEWS just reported that Nader has joined the race as an independent.

-z
 
You're making a dangerous assumption that one evil is lesser than the other.

Since it looks like it'll be John Kerry vs. George Bush, that's who I'll focus on. We all know about Bush; he resembles a Democrat in so many ways—no, strike that, he's so much more like a Democrat than even the Democrats, increasing the general budget at a rate 3-4 times what any Democrat president since and including Johnson has. And yet, the Democrats criticize him with wanting to cut government too much.

Kerry, on the other hand, has voiced support for fellow Democrat Fritz Holling's bill (S.89) which would reintroduce the draft. And his own record in Vietnam certainly makes one wonder if he would be any less warlike than Bush.

This really isn't about the "lesser" evil. This is about "my" evil. When Reagan was in office and started meddling in countries around the world, the Democrats decried it, and continued to do so in the Bush years; yet once Clinton was elected and kept doing the same things, they were all for it. This time, it was the Republicans who were coming out against it, even though they had no problems with it when it was THEIR guy in power. Now, it's flip-flopped again during George III's reign.

Also, look at Ashcroft. Yes, he's arguably done more for the erosion of our more precious rights than any other AG, but it's not as if Janet Reno didn't try. She just didn't succeed because she wasn't in the post-9/11 environment that Ashcroft is. But pretty much all of the stuff, the "enemy combatants," the stuff in the USA PATRIOT Act, etc. are all things that previous administrations have tried to implement before and been shot down because of the gross Constitutional violations they comprise.

It's also interesting that you rail against Thomas and Scalia, when they, along with Kennedy, have stood up for the Constitution and everything it stands for to a much, much greater degree than any other politician or Justice in recent history. In fact, they have stood alone in calling for the overturning of Buckley v. Valeo, for example, even though the Republicans are as much in favor of that "reform" as the Democrats and use it to their advantage whenever possible.

And would someone please tell me how our current situation would have been any different with Gore? Bush merely continued the policy with regards to terrorism and Iraq that Clinton did, and Clinton merely continued the policy of Bush before him (although you'll find precious few Democrats and Republicans who actually acknowledge that fact). So why do people think Gore would have been any different?

Whenever Republicans come out with dangerous legislation when they're in power, the Democrats decry it; but you'll notice they don't work to repeal that legislation once they're in power. It goes the other way, too.

No, there isn't the first bit of evidence that things would actually be any different under Democrats as opposed to Republicans. If the Republicans aren't giving you what you want, then the Democrats aren't going to either. The only way you'll have a chance at getting what you want is to vote for a third party candidate who more closely expresses your views. Anything else is just the same bull$#!7 posturing like what we see every year at the Super Bowl. Well, it's one thing if you cheer for a sports team you like; it's something else to show the same irrational exuberance for those who have power over all of us.

If you really care about science being taught properly in schools, and your rights to privacy and due process, and so many of our other precious freedoms that have been either abrogated or are in serious danger of doing so, then there is only ONE choice that will give you what you want: the Libertarian Party. That is the ONLY party standing up for freedom and the founding principles of our country. And it is the ONLY party that has proven that it will not waver or compromise on these issues, or do something else completely once they are elected. Our government needs to be, in the words of Thomas Jefferson, bound down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution. Then, you wouldn't have to worry about bad or dangerous men getting into power, because they wouldn't have the power to do anything. But there is only ONE party that wants to get us there. Anything else, truly, is wasting your vote.

Go with the status quo if you want. But even if your guy does win, I assure you in four more years you'll be here harking about the same old thing.
 
Please see signature.

For those who don't get the reference, it's from a Simpsons episode back in 96. Through a long and twisty episode, Kang and Kodos impersonate Dole and Clinton in order to take over the world; even after being exposed, they remind everyone that "it's a two-party system." After the global conquest, when Marge complains about being whipped, Homer indignantly responds "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos."
 
Cleon said:
Please see signature.

For those who don't get the reference, it's from a Simpsons episode back in 96. Through a long and twisty episode, Kang and Kodos impersonate Dole and Clinton in order to take over the world; even after being exposed, they remind everyone that "it's a two-party system." After the global conquest, when Marge complains about being whipped, Homer indignantly responds "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos."
Don't forget the "What if vote for a third party candidate?" To which Kang or Kodos responds "Go ahead! Throw your vote away!"
 
Cleon said:
Please see signature.

For those who don't get the reference, it's from a Simpsons episode back in 96. Through a long and twisty episode, Kang and Kodos impersonate Dole and Clinton in order to take over the world; even after being exposed, they remind everyone that "it's a two-party system." After the global conquest, when Marge complains about being whipped, Homer indignantly responds "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos."


"Abortions for everyone"

crowd: "Boooooo"

"Ok, abortions for no-one."

crowd: "Booooooo"

"Hmmm, abortions for some, little american flags for everyone else"

crowd: "Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!"
 
shanek said:
You're making a dangerous assumption that one evil is lesser than the other.

Since it looks like it'll be John Kerry vs. George Bush, that's who I'll focus on. We all know about Bush; he resembles a Democrat in so many ways—no, strike that, he's so much more like a Democrat than even the Democrats, increasing the general budget at a rate 3-4 times what any Democrat president since and including Johnson has. And yet, the Democrats criticize him with wanting to cut government too much.

Kerry, on the other hand, has voiced support for fellow Democrat Fritz Holling's bill (S.89) which would reintroduce the draft. And his own record in Vietnam certainly makes one wonder if he would be any less warlike than Bush.

This really isn't about the "lesser" evil. This is about "my" evil. When Reagan was in office and started meddling in countries around the world, the Democrats decried it, and continued to do so in the Bush years; yet once Clinton was elected and kept doing the same things, they were all for it. This time, it was the Republicans who were coming out against it, even though they had no problems with it when it was THEIR guy in power. Now, it's flip-flopped again during George III's reign.

Also, look at Ashcroft. Yes, he's arguably done more for the erosion of our more precious rights than any other AG, but it's not as if Janet Reno didn't try. She just didn't succeed because she wasn't in the post-9/11 environment that Ashcroft is. But pretty much all of the stuff, the "enemy combatants," the stuff in the USA PATRIOT Act, etc. are all things that previous administrations have tried to implement before and been shot down because of the gross Constitutional violations they comprise.

It's also interesting that you rail against Thomas and Scalia, when they, along with Kennedy, have stood up for the Constitution and everything it stands for to a much, much greater degree than any other politician or Justice in recent history. In fact, they have stood alone in calling for the overturning of Buckley v. Valeo, for example, even though the Republicans are as much in favor of that "reform" as the Democrats and use it to their advantage whenever possible.

And would someone please tell me how our current situation would have been any different with Gore? Bush merely continued the policy with regards to terrorism and Iraq that Clinton did, and Clinton merely continued the policy of Bush before him (although you'll find precious few Democrats and Republicans who actually acknowledge that fact). So why do people think Gore would have been any different?

Whenever Republicans come out with dangerous legislation when they're in power, the Democrats decry it; but you'll notice they don't work to repeal that legislation once they're in power. It goes the other way, too.

No, there isn't the first bit of evidence that things would actually be any different under Democrats as opposed to Republicans. If the Republicans aren't giving you what you want, then the Democrats aren't going to either. The only way you'll have a chance at getting what you want is to vote for a third party candidate who more closely expresses your views. Anything else is just the same bull$#!7 posturing like what we see every year at the Super Bowl. Well, it's one thing if you cheer for a sports team you like; it's something else to show the same irrational exuberance for those who have power over all of us.

If you really care about science being taught properly in schools, and your rights to privacy and due process, and so many of our other precious freedoms that have been either abrogated or are in serious danger of doing so, then there is only ONE choice that will give you what you want: the Libertarian Party. That is the ONLY party standing up for freedom and the founding principles of our country. And it is the ONLY party that has proven that it will not waver or compromise on these issues, or do something else completely once they are elected. Our government needs to be, in the words of Thomas Jefferson, bound down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution. Then, you wouldn't have to worry about bad or dangerous men getting into power, because they wouldn't have the power to do anything. But there is only ONE party that wants to get us there. Anything else, truly, is wasting your vote.

Go with the status quo if you want. But even if your guy does win, I assure you in four more years you'll be here harking about the same old thing.


Great post.
 
> there isn't the first bit of evidence that things would actually
> be any different under Democrats as opposed to Republicans

Shanek, you entirely miss the indisputable point: THE SUPREME COURT.

You can have Bush make 3 appointments or presumably Kerry. It's that simple. So if you don't mind creationism taught in public school science class, and don't mind prayer in public school, and don't mind outlawing of abortion, go ahead and vote libertarian.

And if you like the notion of our foriegn policy being determined by fundamentalist wing nuts who believe in armageddon, go ahead and vote libertarian.

varwoche
 
Hexxenhammer said:
Don't forget the "What if vote for a third party candidate?" To which Kang or Kodos responds "Go ahead! Throw your vote away!"

I was trying to give the Cliffnotes version. :) But yeah, that's a classic.
 
shanek said:
You're making a dangerous assumption that one evil is lesser than the other.


What's dangerous is allowing either party to control the Presidency and Congress.

With a divided government, one side keeps the other from going over the edge.





But Kang or Kodos do sound good right now.
 
Cleon said:
Please see signature.

For those who don't get the reference, it's from a Simpsons episode back in 96. Through a long and twisty episode, Kang and Kodos impersonate Dole and Clinton in order to take over the world; even after being exposed, they remind everyone that "it's a two-party system." After the global conquest, when Marge complains about being whipped, Homer indignantly responds "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos."

Or the Futurama presidential debate between Jack Johnson and John Jackson.

"Your 2% tax cut doesn't go far enough!" "Well, your 2% tax cut goes too far!"

Both candidates looked identical, and were voiced by the same actor.
 
varwoche said:
Shanek, you entirely miss the indisputable point: THE SUPREME COURT.

No, I didn't. I responded directly to your mischaracterization of Scalia and Thomas.

You can have Bush make 3 appointments or presumably Kerry. It's that simple.

And ultimately it will make no difference, since neither one is likely to nominate strict Constitutionalists. It's that simple.

So if you don't mind creationism taught in public school science class, and don't mind prayer in public school, and don't mind outlawing of abortion, go ahead and vote libertarian.

And if you like the notion of our foriegn policy being determined by fundamentalist wing nuts who believe in armageddon, go ahead and vote libertarian.

Did you even read my post?
 
I have to go third party once again. You can say "this election is too important to let the opposition party win," but every election from now to the Rapture will fall into the same category because the two-party system always leads to the same stuff. I have to vote third party because to make real changes, someone like the Libertarians need to hit the 5% threshold so they can get the matching funds (which, ironically enough they will eliminate if they get in power). The only way to have real changes 30 or 60 years from now is to get a third (and fourth) party into the news, into the debates, and into people's considerations.

When one thinks rationally about it, having more than two political parties is the American Way. The country was founded with the idea that various groups would all run for office.
 

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