Nothing Fails Like Prayer (not)

[woodguard]

Did God listen to the prayer?

I looking at a graph that stops going up and flats out?
It even started to go down for a while.

How is this proof nothing happened?

I did not know it was good to pick a decision without look at the evidents you have.
Maybe is graph should go in the "file drawer" and find another one, that shows you evidents better.

 

[CP489]

Why is it that all of the evangelists on here seem to lack a basic understanding of grammar?

And the "Gas Price Prayer" is a fail-proof prayer. If at ANY POINT in the future, gas prices fall, they can claim success.

 

[Pyrrho]

Washington DC really is the capital of the United States of America.

It would be just like God to raise gasoline prices in response to prayer...as if Almighty God is concerned with worldly matters.

Or, one could argue that the Devil had more influence because people are so wicked. Or, one could argue that not enough people prayed. The beat goes on...

 

[case sensitive]

All mighty and all knowing God listens to a prayer and then does nothing to lower the price. I see no evidence of a miracle. And without evidence of a miracle there is no miracle.

 

[Pyrrho]

"That's all part of God's plan."

"God must have a good reason for not lowering gas prices."

"Who are we to question God?"

Might as well get the usual answers out of the way.

The notion of praying for lower gasoline prices is manifestly ridiculous and silly, and just about as self-serving as US of Americans can get.

 

[Beleth]

And yet...

The graph certainly shows an abrupt change in the trend of gasoline prices at that time.

I'm not saying that the two had anything to do with each other. I'm just saying that the evidence provided does not disprove the hypothesis that praying has no effect.

Who knows exactly what all those clergymen actually prayed for? Maybe a bunch of them prayed for "gas prices to stop rising" instead of for "gas prices to go down".

While I am a firm believer that prayer is ineffectual, this study does not add to the data supporting that belief.

 

[case sensitive]

And yet...

The graph certainly shows an abrupt change in the trend of gasoline prices at that time.

I'm not saying that the two had anything to do with each other. I'm just saying that the evidence provided does not disprove the hypothesis that praying has no effect.

Who knows exactly what all those clergymen actually prayed for? Maybe a bunch of them prayed for "gas prices to stop rising" instead of for "gas prices to go down".

While I am a firm believer that prayer is ineffectual, this study does not add to the data supporting that belief.

Maybe but if we did a little research about changes in oilprices and the real reasons behind this curve I am sure we would find nothing strange at all.

 

[woodguard]

All mighty and all knowing God listens to a prayer and then does nothing to lower the price. I see no evidence of a miracle. And without evidence of a miracles there is no miracle.

Open you eyes and look at the graph. No one is saying God or Proof of miracle. The graph shows an effect around the time of the praying.

 

[woodguard]

Why is it that all of the evangelists on here seem to lack a basic understanding of grammar?

And the "Gas Price Prayer" is a fail-proof prayer. If at ANY POINT in the future, gas prices fall, they can claim success.

Is’t that a woowoo tactic. If you can not attack the evidents, attack the person.

And if your going to correct my grammar, please show what you mean.
I learn from my mistakes.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Petroleum comes from under the earth, so perhaps supplications to cthonic entities would be more effective than prayer to "heaven".

 

[amhartley]

People so often think of a miracle as a suspension or breaking of natural laws. In “case-sensitive’s” words, a miracle is “something strange.”

But the biggest miracle is that God loved us enough to send Jesus, even to die for us, & even when we hated Him. And the next biggest (although one that preceded the stable & the Cross) is that He upholds this world, i.e., that He has put those natural laws in place.

It is tragic that, since the time of Descartes (recall his “substances”) & even before, Western culture has thought of the world as self-sufficient. According to this (deist) conception, a miracle is God intervening in the world that can get along just fine without Him, as if He were a blind watchmaker who had set the world in motion on its own. But the biblical God is the One Who stays involved with the creation, to the minutest detail. Infinite & infinitesimal; macro as well as micro.

Come to think of it, this naturalist idea of a self-sufficient world is also a religion of sorts. Everybody has a divinity belief of some kind; the naturalist divinity belief is that the physical world came from nothing & has always existed.

Our view of God’s involvement with the world is quite a bit more important than grammar. Or even gas prices.
-Andrew

 

[Beleth]

But the biblical God is the One Who stays involved with the creation, to the minutest detail. Infinite & infinitesimal; macro as well as micro.

Please feel free to repost this over in the "Religion and Philosophy" section of this forum, where it will get the responses it deserves.

Posting it here is less appropriate than posting it there, since it no longer has any applicability to the latest commentary.

 

[amhartley]

Beleth,
thx for the tip; I intend to.

Also, I will assume you mean that my post is relevant in both sections. Because the thread above assumes a certain picture of miracles, God & His involvement in the world. I think you will agree that JREF members are interested in questioning assumptions?

 

[CP489]

Did God listen to the prayer?

I looking at a graph that stops going up and flats out?
It even started to go down for a while.

How is this proof nothing happened?

I did not know it was good to pick a decision without look at the evidents you have.
Maybe is graph should go in the "file drawer" and find another one, that shows you evidents better.

"I looking at a graph that stops going up and flats out?" should be "I'm looking at a graph that stops going up and flattens out.

Evidents should be evidence.

"I did not know it was good to pick a decision without look at the evidents you have." Should be "I don't think it is acceptable to take a stance on a subject without looking at the available evidence."

I don't even know what you meant by the last sentence.

 

[Beleth]

Beleth,
thx for the tip; I intend to.

Good to hear.

Also, I will assume you mean that my post is relevant in both sections.

Err, no. I meant what I said. For a clarification, see below.

Because the thread above assumes a certain picture of miracles, God & His involvement in the world. I think you will agree that JREF members are interested in questioning assumptions?

Of course. But the assumptions relevant to the latest commentary (and thus this forum) belong to the clergy doing the praying, and not to Randi. Therefore discussing them here is not very useful.

 

[amhartley]

Good to hear.

Err, no. I meant what I said. For a clarification, see below.

Of course. But the assumptions relevant to the latest commentary (and thus this forum) belong to the clergy doing the praying, and not to Randi. Therefore discussing them here is not very useful.

Beleth,
thx for clarifying. The assumptions relevant to the latest commentary, at least (I won't refer to those of Randi in general), have to do with what constitutes a "miracle." Both the clergy and Randi are assuming certain definitions of one. As I've said, that's not necessarily the biblical definition.

Your reply could be interpreted as an implicit denial that our discussants are assuming anything, or at least anything relevant. I certainly hope you're not trying to squash a questioning of assumptions, 'cuz as far as I can tell that's not what Randi is to be about.

 

[psy kick]

I know from personal experience, sometimes prayer is definitely answered. But sometimes it isn't. Its a bit capricious. So you can't count on it to happen (if one is christian). Sometimes He'll answer, sometimes, its a no.

 

[CP489]

Hey! The same thing happens when I do nothing. Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't...weird.

 

[psy kick]

Not really. When I asked for a certain amount of money and told no one, a stranger mailed me the exact amount. Ever happened to you? Didn't think so.

 

[woodguard]

I did find it odd. Looking at one little graph showing an effect. Just one test that is statically meaningless. But already God, the bible and miracles are on the table.

Do you see the bias?

I thought that in science(and skepticism) you looked at the facts and I did not see God or a miracle in the test. All I saw, was one little test that was reported wrongly. I do wonder how many other prayer studies are rejected this way.

You can’t judge things based on what you think is right or wrong. Thank GOD, science came along and show us the truth. Intuition is a bad science tool.



CP489 Thanks for the grammar tips. How, that I see it, I was typing worst then normal. I am trusting my grammar checker too much. And will work on it.