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Non-binary identities are valid

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d4m10n

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d4m10n
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Okay so I've seen this meme a few times now:

https://twitter.com/theFoxFisher/status/1181166556488830976

I've been wondering if it can be unpacked in a sensible way, such that people who've never questioned their gender will understand how and why non-binary identities are valid. Is this unique phenomenon amenable to scientific study? Are there any objectively falsifiable or verifiable propositions being put forward here?

ETA: There are non-binary skeptics as well:
[IMGw=640]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/0f5912b423c31c5ba614f1841dcae0ab.jpg[/IMGw]


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Just shooting the **** here:


in order to consider oneself as "non-binary", one would probably had to grow up in an environment that has some very strong norms about gender roles and characteristics to begin with: it's hard to fall outside a norm that is wishy-washy to begin with.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Just shooting the **** here:


in order to consider oneself as "non-binary", one would probably had to grow up in an environment that has some very strong norms about gender roles and characteristics to begin with: it's hard to fall outside a norm that is wishy-washy to begin with.
Click to expand...

Makes sense to me.

I think it could also be an issue if the person you're talking to has strong personal views about binary gender, and is trying to hold you to their standard.
 
Belz... said:
What's the medical opinion on this?
Click to expand...

I found a flyer from the APA which sort of helps, but it mentions "the underrepresentation of non-binary gender populations in the literature" as well as "limited research on individuals with non-binary gender identities." It also says that clinicians should defer to personal experiences, blogs, essays, etc. when it comes to understanding the lived experience of non-binary persons. Basically, I'm not getting the sense that they are doing a load of science on the problem, at least not yet.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
in order to consider oneself as "non-binary", one would probably had to grow up in an environment that has some very strong norms about gender roles and characteristics to begin with: it's hard to fall outside a norm that is wishy-washy to begin with.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's true. When my nephew was a few years old, he asked me why I have "girl's hair" (I had long hair at the time). I feel confident in saying he didn't get this from his home life--his parents encouraged him to sleep with a doll around this time, and got mildly annoyed at me for buying him a dinosaur toy (too stereotypically male, I guess).

In general, people underestimate the ability of children to draw strong statistical inferences from even weak environmental cues. We think we teach children who they are, when it's more accurate to say they learn who they are from observing the world around them. And even in the crunchiest, most genderless households, there's plenty of information around to allow children to differentiate between boys and girls, women and men.

I'd expect that people with openly non-binary identities are more likely where gender norms are weaker, for the simple reason that the social consequences are less severe.
 
d4m10n said:
ETA: There are non-binary skeptics as well:
Click to expand...
There are also deniers of bisexuality. The real issue is: why do so many people feel the need to question the validity of how other people feel about themselves...
 
d4m10n said:
I've been wondering if it can be unpacked in a sensible way, such that people who've never questioned their gender will understand how and why non-binary identities are valid.
Click to expand...

There's not going to be a magic explanation that everyone will automatically understand and accept. Someone who's comfortable with binary identity and has never question theirs may well find the whole concept incomprehensible and even silly. Possibly threatening or insulting. I don't think there's any way to bridge that mindset gap with rhetoric or science.

About the best explanation I can think of is:

biological gender is binary, but identity and expression are a state of mind, and there are as many states of mind as there are human beings.

No two people are going to agree on every detail of gender expression. Even among hardcore gender binarists you're going to have some people who think that being a tomboy is consistent with female polarity, and some people who think that being a tomboy violates the binary principle.

And that's just personal perceptions. We haven't even started on broader social constructs. And we haven't even started on variances between social constructs in different communities and subcultures.

So either you drive yourself insane trying to define exactly what is and isn't at the extreme each binary pole, and discovering that literally nobody else - not your pastor, not your parents, not your life partner - agrees with all your definitions... Or you accept that it's not binary and move on with your life.​

But there's no guarantee that anyone who's never questioned their gender will understand it or recognize that non-binary identities are valid.

I wonder if you can't really consider the explanation without questioning your own identity, at least hypothetically. Once you start down the rabbit hole of "no question I'm a dude, but what about the fact that nobody else agrees with me about what exactly a dude is?" there's no turning back. Some people just aren't interested in going down that personal identity rabbit hole, for a variety of reasons. Any explanation is going to fall on at least some deaf ears.

Searching for an explanation that will be universally or even widely accepted may be a fool's errand. Best we can hope for - what we should strive for - is simply an explanation that explains.
 
Earthborn said:
There are also deniers of bisexuality. The real issue is: why do so many people feel the need to question the validity of how other people feel about themselves...
Click to expand...

Because we live in a society. Social constructs have value. It is reasonable to want to debate challenges to, and dissent from, the prevailing social constructs.

More generally, we happily endorse questioning the validity of other people's feelings about themselves all the time.

"I'm just trying to have something nice on my wedding day."
No, you're being an unreasonable bridezilla and you need to calm down.

"I just care about my children and want what's best for them."
No, you're a controlling and abusive parent.

"Anorexia is a lifestyle choice that really helps me to be the best me I can be!"
No, it isn't. It really isn't.

"I need to be true to myself and not hide it from the world!"
This is the third time you've "come out" this year, and it's pretty obvious to all of us that you're doing it for the attention, not out of some sincere need to be open and honest about your sexuality.

Etc.
 
Earthborn said:
There are also deniers of bisexuality. The real issue is: why do so many people feel the need to question the validity of how other people feel about themselves...
Click to expand...
Yeah. I read "are valid" as "ought to be accepted", and I have no problem doing that, for the simple reason that it's no skin off my nose.
 
Earthborn said:
The real issue is: why do so many people feel the need to question the validity of how other people feel about themselves...
Click to expand...

For the exact same reason people are concerned with how other people feel about them.

"Feeling about" is a two way street.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Bisexuality is the norm in social animals.
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Or is it?

Do most animals have enough of a personal sexual identity for something like bisexuality to even exist, for them?

Also, is there a difference between bisexuality as such, and opportunistic "any port in this horny storm" heterosexuality?

Sailors and prisoners making do doesn't mean they were bisexual all along. You might say that "bisexuality" is the norm in sex-segregated prisons, but would it be true? More to the point, would the term even be useful if you make it that broad?

I don't think this is a problem that can be solved by oversimplifying it.
 
d4m10n said:
I found a flyer from the APA which sort of helps, but it mentions "the underrepresentation of non-binary gender populations in the literature" as well as "limited research on individuals with non-binary gender identities." It also says that clinicians should defer to personal experiences, blogs, essays, etc. when it comes to understanding the lived experience of non-binary persons. Basically, I'm not getting the sense that they are doing a load of science on the problem, at least not yet.
Click to expand...

Considering the tiny numbers of trans people, and that non-binary ones should be, I think reasonably, expected to be a small minority of those, I can believe that it would be hard to study them to begin with.
 
Earthborn said:
There are also deniers of bisexuality. The real issue is: why do so many people feel the need to question the validity of how other people feel about themselves...
Click to expand...

Because those beliefs project into real-life consequences.

And also because humans are routinely wrong about even themselves.
 
Belz... said:
Considering the tiny numbers of trans people, and that non-binary ones should be, I think reasonably, expected to be a small minority of those, I can believe that it would be hard to study them to begin with.
Click to expand...

I see non-binary as a separate category from transgender. I expect there's a lot of people (relatively) who don't suffer from gender dysphoria or have any strong desire to present themselves as something other than their birth gender, who also don't have any strong affinity for either binary option in their self-identity.

"I'm not transitioning from anything to anything; I just don't think of myself in those terms."
 
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