NOLA, was enough done at the beggining.

RandFan

Mormon Atheist
Joined
Dec 18, 2001
Messages
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The stories I'm hearing are causing me great concern. Was this really an unknown? The situation is really serious. People are dying right now. It's going to be dark soon and things could get really bad.

I'm resisting my visceral temptations to be angry at the government. But I could be pushed into that. Any thoughts? And yeah, feel free to blame but give some reason besides "they should have known". Tell me why.
 
I think relief efforts are slow, but look at it this way. The first inkling that this sort of thing might happen was about 3-4 days before Katrina struck. Even if intensive relief efforts had begun at that point, they still would probably not have been able to get it up to speed to the point where everyone would be safe and cared for by now. In other words, a relief effort of this magnitude cannot be implemented within such a short time frame unless you have massive quantities of supplies constantly sitting around just in case there is a massive need, and you would need to have large numbers of people whose job is to be on full time alert and ready to go. The expense would be enormous, and hard to justify to the taxpayers if it was never needed.

Believe it or not, I'm NOT going to jump all over Dubya, not yet anyway. This is a once in a century event (I hope), and there's almost no way to be prepared for it. The only negative thing I will say regarding him is that if we didn't have this silly war going on, we would have more Guardsmen available for relief efforts.
 
What amazes me is that they still don't have the looting and anarchy under control. The stories we've been hearing are utterly horrific -- and completely unsurprising. Not to sound like a know-it-all, but this is exactly the kind of situation I pictured when I evacuated. (My fiance wanted to stay and ride it out in a hospital where two of her friends worked. It was my description of the likely aftermath that convinced her to go. Her friends stayed, and now we don't know if they're alive or dead.)

It doesn't take a genius to know that desperate people act like animals, and that there were going to be a lot of desperate people in the wake of this, and that a lot of them would be armed. I'm highly disappointed that the National Guard wasn't hot on the tail of the storm.
 
Quinn said:
What amazes me is that they still don't have the looting and anarchy under control.
Media are raising questions about the leadership - it seems like responsibility is being pushed around from New Orleans Police, to State Police, to National Guard and back to where it came from.

Arnold "it's a question of leadership" where are you?
 
shemp said:
I think relief efforts are slow, but look at it this way. The first inkling that this sort of thing might happen was about 3-4 days before Katrina struck. Even if intensive relief efforts had begun at that point, they still would probably not have been able to get it up to speed to the point where everyone would be safe and cared for by now. In other words, a relief effort of this magnitude cannot be implemented within such a short time frame unless you have massive quantities of supplies constantly sitting around just in case there is a massive need, and you would need to have large numbers of people whose job is to be on full time alert and ready to go. The expense would be enormous, and hard to justify to the taxpayers if it was never needed.

Believe it or not, I'm NOT going to jump all over Dubya, not yet anyway. This is a once in a century event (I hope), and there's almost no way to be prepared for it. The only negative thing I will say regarding him is that if we didn't have this silly war going on, we would have more Guardsmen available for relief efforts.
Thanks shemp. Yeah, I wan't someone to blame for this. Damn this sucks. Put me down as a bleeding heart softy when it comes to people who are suffering through no fault of their own and it seems that little can be done about immediately.

I'll blame God.
 
RandFan said:
The stories I'm hearing are causing me great concern. Was this really an unknown? The situation is really serious. People are dying right now. It's going to be dark soon and things could get really bad.

I'm resisting my visceral temptations to be angry at the government. But I could be pushed into that. Any thoughts? And yeah, feel free to blame but give some reason besides "they should have known". Tell me why.
Good question. I also have resisted blaming the Govt. This is such a huge disaster, the logistics and coordination must be unbelievable. But I'm starting to wonder how much we really have learned over the years and how much we've improved our ability to react to such a huge problem. Three years after 9/11 I would hope the Govt would have solid communications capability within the heart of a disaster area in less then 48 hours. It appears, 4 days later, there still isn't good communication between the Police/Fire/Fema/Nat Guard/etc.

I suspect when all is done there will plenty of blame to go around.

The people who could have evacuated but didn't
The people who couldn't evacuate, other then telling them to go to a shelter, what else could/should have been done
The criminals roaming the streets now, after 4 days, ya think this could be under more control
Why did they let the city sink further and further below sea level
Designating the Superdome as a disaster site, but apparently good for only 24 hours until it runs out of facilities.

I realize this was a hurricane followed by a flood from the broken levees, which causes lots of additional problems, but I don't see any sign that consideration of flooding was part of any evacuation strategy. For example, the superdome again, it seems evacuating it is an improvised plan, no one thought about that possibility before?

While this may change soon, my only complaint now is I'm sick of hearing the agency heads patting each other on the back about the hard work and great job they are all doing. Actions should speak for themselves.
 
shemp said:
The first inkling that this sort of thing might happen was about 3-4 days before Katrina struck.
Excuse me?

The thought of a hurricane hitting N.O. came as a surprise?

The thought that a city below sea level, kept from being flooded only by levees, could be in danger of flooding should they fail?

Nobody thought the levee's could fail or be a terrorist target?
Not to many hurricanes occur in the Gulf?
 
DavidJames said:
Excuse me?

The thought of a hurricane hitting N.O. came as a surprise?

The thought that a city below sea level, kept from being flooded only by levees, could be in danger of flooding should they fail?

Nobody thought the levee's could fail or be a terrorist target?
Not to many hurricanes occur in the Gulf?

OK, the first inkling that THIS PARTICULAR HURRICANE NAMED KATRINA COULD CAUSE THIS SORT OF DEVASTATION CAME 3-4 DAYS BEFORE IT STRUCK.

Do I have to explain everything I mean?
 
shemp said:
The only negative thing I will say regarding him is that if we didn't have this silly war going on, we would have more Guardsmen available for relief efforts.
That I'm not upset about, as they seem to have more National Guardsmen on the outskirts of town than authorities are willing to send in at this time.

Where I think the administration can reasonably be criticized is in not beefing up the Army Corps of Engineers to handle domestic tasks while also handling Iraq. I busted on them in another thread, but for better or worse you can't do anything around water without them around so they should be around. It would not have prevented this disaster (indeed, it might have worsened it -- imagine a temporary lock busting and inundating an entire levee line which was being rebuilt), but it would have signalled a committment to domestic needs. And if it wasn't New Orleans this time it could have been Charleston, or Coastal Carolina (north and South) or any of a bunch of other places that have flood control or erosion abatement programs on hold waiting for the Corps to come back. So that's the Bush-specific criticism.

Federal-government wide but not specific to any president is the failure to drill for this. This particular hurricane was a tricky one -- it entered the Gulf barely a category 1. But more generally everyone knew that eventually a Cat 5 would hit New Orleans. Everybody. I'm a person who believes that local things like this are best handled by locals, but the reality is that FEMA is the big mama-jama of disaster preparation. There should have been a big notebook somewhere with an updated list of where to find 1,000 busses and drivers on a moment's notice, where to store and man 500 flat boats, which sections of the city would flood first if each levee broke, etc. The M in FEMA stands for Management, and managers have contingency plans.

On the state and (mostly) local level is where the big breakdown seems to have occurred. OK, they had 10 shelters. But most of them were in the very areas to flood first, and even the Superdome is a little below the lake, it turns out. Again, if the whole city's in a bowl you need busses not buildings to escape flooding. That's particularly true in poor urban areas where much of the populace does not have a personal automobile. Also, if the primary risk to your city is water and wind and water kills electricity and wind kills towers, it seems like in investment should have been made in battery-operated, easily-placed radio repeaters.

And either with FEMA or without them, they should have drilled, drilled, drilled. Again, the city's topography is known and gravity is pretty well understood. Someone could have known what parts of the city would flood first under a variety of scenarios. There was literally nothing about this situation which wasn't easily predictable except for the free hours between the passing of the storm and the failure of the levees

I'm hesitant to bring up another failure because I'm sure that law enforcement is doing its level best and acting heroically right now, but the issue of crime has to be addressed. New Orleans was one of the most crime-ridden cities in the nation and the police force was widely seen as both incompetent and corrupt. How many people could have evacuated but didn't precisely because they feared that if they left their possessions would have been stolen even if the storm had missed? If you want people to obey your order to evacuate, you have to give them confidence that they will have a life to return to the 99 times the storm doesn't do what it did this time.

There's also some criticism for both the Mississippi and (to a lesser extent) Louisiana governments for allowing and building a huge new industry, gaming, but forcing the facilities to be on boats. The initial idea was for actual, sailing riverboats which could have been moved, but the governments got addicted to the easy tax revenues and allowed the casino industry to push for larger and larger "boats." The industry, in turn, played right along and you can see the results along I-90 in Biloxi.

There are also some big-picture items like the unwillingness to allow drilling and new refineries in different places which is leading to the supply emergency we're seeing right now, but those are my initial thoughts.
 
shemp said:
OK, the first inkling that THIS PARTICULAR HURRICANE NAMED KATRINA COULD CAUSE THIS SORT OF DEVASTATION CAME 3-4 DAYS BEFORE IT STRUCK.

Do I have to explain everything I mean?
Of course I knew what you meant (but the capitol letters sure cleared up any remaining confusion ;)), but I hope you get my point. Surviving a disaster like this needs much more planning then what is available when you only start once you see the hurricane on the horizon. The 3 or 4 days before the hurricane should be spent executing plans developed way before hand.
 
Well, they told people to evacuate. That seemed to be about the extent of their preparations. If you were sick or too poor to own a car, you were pretty much fubared.

Kind of frightening that they had several days warning that this might happen and we were still caught so unprepared. What the hell does FEMA and homeland security do, anyway? This kind of thing is the entire reason they exist. I mean, damn. What would happen if we were suckerpunched with a nuke or a biological attack?
 
Did anyone else hear the interview with Michael Chernoff (sp? Director of Homeland Security) on NPR today?

The host was incredulous as he intervied Chernoff. The host was asking, repeatedly, about conditions at the Convention Center, and Chernoff, repeatedly, said things at the Superdome were fine now.

At the time of the interview, I had been reading about the deteriorating conditions at the Convention Center for several hours, but Chernoff said he couldn't confirm that any such situation existed.

The tone just said to me that this man was out of touch and not the right man for the job.

There will be plenty of investigations into this, and some people will look very, very, bad. I feel sorry for some of them. I suspect the mayor of New Orleans is a nice guy, but I don't think he looks very good right now, although I think he gets an A for effort.

I heard the President in an interview say, "The levees broke. No one anticipated that." (quote from memory. certainly not exactly right, but I remember that the key phrase was that the levee brake was unanticipated.) Who told him that? The day before the storm the newspapers were full of stories about the possibility of the levees breaking. It would be unfair to blame the President for the storm, or even for the failure in reacting to the storm, but I don't think it's unfair to blame the people he appointed. That really is their job. And if you blame them, the President has to take at least some of that blame himself. The guy at the top can't be responsible for everything, but he does pick the people who will be, and I think they are doing a lousy job.
 
Meadmaker said:
Did anyone else hear the interview with Michael Chernoff (sp? Director of Homeland Security) on NPR today?

The host was incredulous as he intervied Chernoff. The host was asking, repeatedly, about conditions at the Convention Center, and Chernoff, repeatedly, said things at the Superdome were fine now.

At the time of the interview, I had been reading about the deteriorating conditions at the Convention Center for several hours, but Chernoff said he couldn't confirm that any such situation existed.

The tone just said to me that this man was out of touch and not the right man for the job.

There will be plenty of investigations into this, and some people will look very, very, bad. I feel sorry for some of them. I suspect the mayor of New Orleans is a nice guy, but I don't think he looks very good right now, although I think he gets an A for effort.
I think government types often skate through their jobs showing up 9 - 5 turning in the time and generating a lot of heat and no light.

I heard the President in an interview say, "The levees broke. No one anticipated that." (quote from memory. certainly not exactly right, but I remember that the key phrase was that the levee brake was unanticipated.) Who told him that? The day before the storm the newspapers were full of stories about the possibility of the levees breaking.
This is what I remember.
 
The US government earlier announced it had restored order in New Orleans, six days after Hurricane Katrina brought flood waters and anarchy to the city.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4214232.stm


They rushed to announce that they got everything under control in response to everyone's anger at their slow response.

Yet...

As authorities struggled to keep order, police shot eight people, killing five or six, after gunmen opened fire on a group of contractors traveling across a bridge on their way to make repairs, authorities said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane_katrina

Completely unethical. Problem solved. Moving on...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050905/pl_nm/usa_court_rehnquist_dc_7

Thanks, Uncle SAM! :usa:
 

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