Noam Chomsky on Vaclav Havel

[aerocontrols]

Check it out

I'll take a single Havel over a thousand Chomskys, thanks.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

Chomsky

Though I cannot comment on the debate, as I dislike fundies and the guy did sound like a spiritualist....

I must say that I find Chomsky to be extreme and stretch credulity. According to Chomsky the US is the most evil nation in the world...though it allows Chomsky the ability to operate freely.

Likewise Chomsky has made statements in the past to the effect that a Native American tribe of about eight hundred lived for hundreds of years without ever having problems with rape,murder or theft.....yeah right. Chomsky should stick to linguistics and leave history to Jared Diamond.

 

[corplinx]

Chomsky who? Never read him, never cared to. Never read his critics.

 

[Mike B.]

Perhaps you should Corplinx.
There are a few on this forum who take every single word of his inane rantings as gospel truth.

Look at this latest gem:

"East Europe under Russian rule was practically a paradise."

In this he is comparing the current US installed terror regimes in Eastern Europe like in the Czech Republic.

Now I have been in Poland. Let me say the Russians in Poland were about as popular as "the clap."

I guess I missed all the Lithuainians protesting for the Russians to stay in their country as well...hmmmmmmmmm

But it doesn't matter, Chomsky knows because he is as much as a fundamentalist as any religious person.

 

[shemp]

The thought of Noam Chomsky on Vaclav Havel is making it difficult to keep down my dinner.

 

[Goshawk]

For Corplinx, for some rainy Saturday afternoon with absolutely nothing else to do.

The Noam Chomsky Archive...
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/index.cfm

Welcome! Noam Chomsky is one of America's most prominent political dissidents. A renowned professor of linguistics at MIT, he has authored over 30 political books dissecting such issues as U.S. interventionism in the developing world, the political economy of human rights and the propaganda role of corporate media...

His MIT home page.
http://web.mit.edu/linguistics/www/chomsky.home.html

 

[corplinx]

Another academic who has never worked a real job or been on the wrong end of an ass beating I take it?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Another academic who has never worked a real job or been on the wrong end of an ass beating I take it?

lol

JK

 

[fidiot]

The thought of Noam Chomsky on Vaclav Havel is making it difficult to keep down my dinner.

hahah

 

[a_unique_person]

Perhaps you should Corplinx.
There are a few on this forum who take every single word of his inane rantings as gospel truth.

Look at this latest gem:

"East Europe under Russian rule was practically a paradise."

In this he is comparing the current US installed terror regimes in Eastern Europe like in the Czech Republic.

Now I have been in Poland. Let me say the Russians in Poland were about as popular as "the clap."

I guess I missed all the Lithuainians protesting for the Russians to stay in their country as well...hmmmmmmmmm

But it doesn't matter, Chomsky knows because he is as much as a fundamentalist as any religious person.

you didn't even read the sentence, it has been taken out of context, and makes a pertinent point, if you have the intelligence to undertand it. At least argue the point he was making, not the one he has been accused of making.

The point was, that Vietnam under american 'occupation' was a lot worse than czechoslovakia was under the USSR. That is, a country at war in which over a million people died is a lot worse than a country that is at peace, even if it is occupied by an unwanted power, without the war.

The american tactic appears to have been, we had to destroy the country to save it, even if they couldn't actually win the war.

 

[Leif Roar]

Another academic who has never worked a real job or been on the wrong end of an ass beating I take it?

As we all know, political acumen is directly proportional to how many years you've worked as a welder, farmer, electrician or other real job; and the number of times you've been beaten up in dark alleys.

This whole "blue-collar reverse snobbery" is rather silly - especially since its proponents tend to be at least as dismissive of academics as they claim academics are of practical experience.

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by a_unique_person:

you didn't even read the sentence, it has been taken out of context, and makes a pertinent point, if you have the intelligence to undertand it. At least argue the point he was making, not the one he has been accused of making.

The point was, that Vietnam under american 'occupation' was a lot worse than czechoslovakia was under the USSR. That is, a country at war in which over a million people died is a lot worse than a country that is at peace, even if it is occupied by an unwanted power, without the war.

The american tactic appears to have been, we had to destroy the country to save it, even if they couldn't actually win the war.

The full sentence was "It's also unnecessary to point out to the half a dozen or so sane people who remain that in comparison to the conditions imposed by US tyranny and violence, East Europe under Russian rule was practically a paradise."

IIRC the South Vietnamese requested American military aid, which initially was supposed to consist of little more than the availability of US military advisors to the South Vietnamese forces, but developed into a full military engagement.

Chomsky's assertion that the Soviet cosh was preferable to an undefined US "tyranny" is nonsense. Just ask the people who hads to live in this "paradise", which was the point Mike was making.

 

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by a_unique_person:


The full sentence was "It's also unnecessary to point out to the half a dozen or so sane people who remain that in comparison to the conditions imposed by US tyranny and violence, East Europe under Russian rule was practically a paradise."

IIRC the South Vietnamese requested American military aid, which initially was supposed to consist of little more than the availability of US military advisors to the South Vietnamese forces, but developed into a full military engagement.

Yeah, right......

There was supposed to be a democratic vote on re-unification. The 'South' Vietnamese were merely a colonialist construct that occured when the French were kicked out. If the vote had been taken, everyone knew the vote would have been for re-unification of North and South with the dreaded North in charge.

The South, such as it was, was largely represented by the colonialist rump of Vietnamese who supported the French, hardly the sort of people to get popular support.

The invitation for the US was from the person the US made president. Kind of a circular arrangement.

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by a_unique_person:

Yeah, right......

There was supposed to be a democratic vote on re-unification. The 'South' Vietnamese were merely a colonialist construct that occured when the French were kicked out. If the vote had been taken, everyone knew the vote would have been for re-unification of North and South with the dreaded North in charge.

The South, such as it was, was largely represented by the colonialist rump of Vietnamese who supported the French, hardly the sort of people to get popular support.

The invitation for the US was from the person the US made president. Kind of a circular arrangement.

So the French are to blame? So why hasn't Chomsky addressed inate imperialist tendancies on the part of the French as motivating their present stance on Iraq?

 

[headscratcher4]

The US War in Vietnam, it seems to me, was misguided and to fight it we (the US) supported many un-democratic elements and engaged in very questionable actions -- actions that in many ways directly contradicted not only our stated goals in the country, but our stated values.

Having said this, context -- it seems to me -- is also important. Yes, the US supported "reactionary" forces, yet at the same time the Russians were crushing democratic and freedom movements throughout Eastern Europe -- Poland, E.Germany and Hungary comes to mind. Further, Mao was concentrating his own governance of China and laying the groundwork for famine and disaster that ended up in the deaths of millions.

My point is not to excuse US failings, but to suggest that there were more horrible things going on in the world. Now, you can look at the Vietnamese situation and argue that the North was a liberation movement and a reunification effort. All likely true. However, these were not democrats and they were not -- and as importantly did not -- create democratic institutions. It is hard to argue that the re-education facilities etc. established by the victors were somehow better, more humane or gentler to victims than the various practices of the South regime or its US patrons.

Hundreds of thousands if not millions fled "democratic" united Vietnam both because of the regime, as well as because of their work with/for the US and the South regime.

Today, Vietnam is a one party state where dissent is persecuted, where party hacks dominate the system, the beauracracy stifles both creativity and innovation, and there is little hope of real reform. As importantly, this was always the likely outcome of the North's victory and reunification effort -- given its underlying allegiance to Leninist and Stalinist methodology and thinking.

Now, while there was little that was good or admirable about the South or US involvement in that Civil war, it strikes me that there is nothing particularly good or admirable about the current situation in Vietnam -- save that it is "unified". Perhaps that is enough. Perhaps the US effort that stifled "unification" is in itself sufficiently evil to merit condemnation.

In any event, Vietnam, Haiti, Guatemala, etc. can all be used to demonstrate the US's ham-handed and often misguided policies.

I only note -- and am not sure how to place it in context -- that at the time when US supported governments and actions were resulting in the torture, death and repression of hundreds of thousands, actions taken by the USSR, China, etc. was resulting in repression and deaths of millions. This is not to excuse misguided policies of the US and its allies, nor is it intended to suggest that many questionable interests directed US policy. Rather it is to suggest that as bad as US policy could be, there was and is real evil out there in the form of dictatorships and systems that use terror not merely as an instrument of control, but at basic state policy -- Saddam, not the least.

Just some, likely misguided if not erroneous observations --
__________________--

 

[corplinx]

As we all know, political acumen is directly proportional to how many years you've worked as a welder, farmer, electrician or other real job; and the number of times you've been beaten up in dark alleys.

This whole "blue-collar reverse snobbery" is rather silly - especially since its proponents tend to be at least as dismissive of academics as they claim academics are of practical experience.

You took that line wayyyyyyyyyyyy too seriously.

 

[Barkhorn1x]

The problem w/ Noam...

...is that you only get half the story - and you can bet that the US is the villian of the piece.

He has a point and speaks the truth you say - well yes he does - but his special version of the truth. And he uses his linguistic expertise to good effect to distract the reader/listener from the shallowness of his arguments.

So, in the end, he must be dismissed for his strident anti-American (anti-Israel) statements that are w/o context or a sense of proportion.

Regards,
Barkhorn.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Just some, likely misguided if not erroneous observations --
__________________--

Very nice post with good points and some not negligeble thought behind it.

NA

Just a likely misguided if not erroneous review.

 

[rikzilla]

Good post HS4...

I think you should repost it over at the "Is Communism Dead?" thread.

As far as Chomsky goes...the man is simply wrong. In error. Lost.

Who can forget his prediction that the US military would kill millions of innocent Afghans in October 2001?? The man is blinded by his own anti-American biases.

-zilla

 

[corplinx]

Who can forget his prediction that the US military would kill millions of innocent Afghans in October 2001?? The man is blinded by his own anti-American biases.

-zilla

I judge political acumen not by people talking about the past, but their ability to predict the future based on their "acumen". Sounds like Chomsky fares about as well as a psychic though.