Noam butts heads with a Looser?

Almo

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From this thread:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14431


I've never once suggested to anyone that they change their priorities and adopt mine -- except when I sign a fund-raising letter for some organization. I do write about the way the world looks to me, and if people find it convincing, they might change their priorities -- so I hope (I have no idea what you mean by "subtle threats": when I write, say, about the threat of nuclear war, it's not at all subtle). There's a sharp difference. For example, in this correspondence I haven't suggested that you should drop your commitment to the 9/11 movement and replace it with my concerns about nuclear war, environmental disaster, massive terror, destruction of Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, etc. If you ask my opinion, I'll tell you that I think your priorities are misplaced, but that's quite a separate matter. These distinctions should be kept clear. I hope they are.

The resistance never had anything like the arrogance and self-righteousness of the 911 movement, which, frankly, I've never seen before outside of circles that interest neither of us. Nor have I ever seen such extraordinary arrogance of the common claims of the 911 movement that if you don't agree with them you must be a coward afraid of your career. There's little I can think of less career-threatening than being involved in this. It doesn't even begin to compare with risks that I and others have taken, not even remotely. People who do take risks don't parade about their incredible courage, or posture about how they alone are not afraid. But if you are interested, you might want to know why my wife went back to college after 17 years because we had three children and i was facing a long prison sentence.

You can believe what you like, and buy what you like, but these comments really merit apology.

This is attributed to Noam Chomsky. Whether or not he in fact said this, it's still a rather solid rebuke of what goes on in the LC forums.
 
I'm not so sure this is Chomsky. I am not aware of him ever facing a "long prison sentence". I could be wrong, though.
 
Nevertheless, I know Chomsky is not endorsing the Trooth Movement. Even though I reallly don't agree with the man's views, you got to give him credit for that.

Let's hope it'll last.
 
I was hoping Noam would say watching loose change was like being bukakked with stupid.

But I guess he's more polite than that.
 
This seems to be in response to something. What was he responding to?
He is responding to kid who tried to convice Noam to change his priorities and take up the 9/11 truth movement because the kid thought people would listen to Noam.
 
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Surprised???

I'm not. It seems that one of the things the 9/11 CTer's like to do is to complain about how the rest of the "left" refuses to promote their "facts." I've seen them constantly whine on DU about the strict quarantine the mods there have put on them (restricted to one group, not allowed to nominate stories to the site's "Greatest Links" page, & the banning of links from the far-right sites they like to quote from,) as well the bans the Daily Koz site have tried to impose over the subject.

But Chomsky is not the only one who has been attacked for not promoting the "truth" - here is part of a post on the matter that I had placed on this site earlier:

Based on a recent post over in the "Nutcase Alley" (my personal name for the site's 9/11 area) section of Democratic Underground concerning a newly published piece of garb... I mean "book" called Towers of Deception by Barrie Zwicker, you can add quite a few more people and orgs. to your definition:
  • Noam Chomsky
  • The Nation
  • Democracy Now!
  • Chip Berlet
  • David Barsamian
  • Z Magazine
  • Alexander Cockburn
  • Norman Solomon
  • The Progressive
  • Mother Jones
  • Alternet.org
  • Global Exchange
  • PBS
  • South End Press
  • Public Research Associates
  • FAIR/Extra!
  • Counterspin
  • Columbia Journalism Review
  • Deep Dish TV
  • Working Assets
  • Molly Ivins
  • Ms Magazine
  • Inter Press Service
  • MoveOn.org
  • Greg Palast
  • David Zupan
  • Northwest Media Project
In fact, according to the person that "reviewed" this item, the author devoted an entire chapter - “The Shame of Noam Chomsky and the Gatekeepers of the Left” - to dump on all those who refuse to have anything to do his and his fellow loons. In fact, here is a direct quote from the "book" that the reviewer included in his post:

“…Chomsky, the most quoted “Leftist” in the Left media, systematically engages in deceptive discourse on certain key topics, such as JFK’s assassination, 9/11, and with regard to the CIA. In warning the Left against examining the evidence on JFK and 9/11, he lines himself up with George Bush and the corporate media, thereby advancing their agenda – which he otherwise opposes. When he is not appearing to undermine the American Empire, which is the main thing he does, he is buttressing it by undermining the most effective and therefore dangerous foe the Empire faces – the conscious Left.” (p. 224)

These people refuse to recognise the real truth of their situation - that they are a small minority, and the only ones they are hurting are the very progressives they demand support them.

In fact, I have seen the CTers brag when one of their number is interviewed for a conservative radio or TV talk show about how this is a great victory for them...

GREAT VICTORY?!?!:jaw-dropp

Do they honestly believe that the host on those show invited them on because they agree with their message???:mad:
 
Okay, here's the lengthy exchange. It starts with a poster calling himself "George Hayduke" saying:

On Saturday I started recruiting Noam Chomsky. The following are my communications with him, starting with the text of the last email I sent him. These run in reverse order so it might be logical to start at the bottom.

Note: I have reversed the order of the alleged exchange of email to put them in chronological order in order to make it easier to follow, and put the individual emails in quote boxes to make it more readable. Why on earth "Hayduke" didn't is beyond me. Talk about lazy.

Anyway, here it is:

----- Original Message -----
From: <edited>
To: <chomsky@mit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 6:37 PM
Subject: Your help is needed!


Professor,

It is my honor to write you being that for the longest time you were my
hero, perhaps, in my mind, the most important thinker alive. I am writing to
inform you that you have been stripped of this title for continuing to
support the official government conspiracy theory of the events of
9/11/2001.

As intelligent as you are I find it impossible to believe that you think Al
Queda was behind the attacks of that fateful day. You pointed out in your
book Media Control that the same shadowy figures who were at the healm of
the government during Iran Contra were in critical positions on the day of
9/11. You've written extensively about black ops, dirty wars, and
international espionage and intrigue. For you to believe anything other than
9/11 was an inside job is to engage in double think, and for you to play the
role of chief highbrow liberal and engage in debate where it is accepted
that 9/11 came from Al Queda operating out of caves in Afghanistan is to
engage in newspeak.

Many people are coming forward and placing their lives and careers on the
line for the sake of the truth, which is obvious. I only need to point out
that the FBI has never indicted Bin Laden for the crimes of 9/11 and when
asked about this in late spring of this year one of their mouthpieces said
that Bin Laden had never been indicted because, simply put, the FBI didn't
have enough evidence supporting the assertion that he was behind the crimes
of 9/11 to get a grand jury to indict the CIA asset. Note that Bin Laden was
in fact indicted by the FBI for the Khobar Towers barracks bombing, and the
bombings of the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

I will also point to World Trade Center 7, which was brought down in what
was clearly an act of controlled demolition after landlord Larry
Silverstein, as he admitted to doing in a PBS documentary, "gave the order
to pull" building seven and "watched it collapse.

Every aspect of the official government conspiracy theory has been proven to
be contrived, fraudulent, outright racist, xenophobic propaganda.

The time has come for you to join the truth movement or be exposed as a
fraud. There is no longer, in my opinion, room in this country for limousine
liberals bent on maintaining their careers and the status quo by denying the
truth about what might prove to be the most important event of our lifetime.

Join us. Go on the record. Announce for the world to see that 9/11 was an
inside job. Demand a proper investigation or for the rabble to mete out its
own form of justice.

Otherwise I challenge you to a public debate. You can argue "blowback
theory" and I'll argue that a privatized branch of the intelligence
community with reach into the utmost heights of government carried out 9/11
in an attempt to restore the opium crops of Afghanistan, in order to secure
the construction of an Enron/Unocal pipeline there, and to get boots on the
ground in Iraq to foment civil war there to Balkanize the region and open it
oil reserves to full-throttle plundering by a handful of American
corporations here at the end of the era of oil. Accept my invitation to this
debate and be defeated.

Or return to the status you so righteously earned, intellectual spokesperson
of the thinking rabble, premier philosopher, skeptic and foreign policy
expert. Right now you are being trounced by the likes of Michael C. Ruppert,
Wayne Madsen, Alex Jones, Morgan Reynolds, Paul Thompson and others who are
so bold as to risk their jobs, their comfort, their lives for the truth.

The decision is yours and frankly, Noam, it is a decision of whether or not
to be a patriot.

Join us. End the doublethink. Be a patriot.

From: Noam Chomsky [mailto:chomsky@MIT.EDU]
Sent: Sat 9/16/2006 3:02 PM
To: <edited>
Subject: Re: Your help is needed!



To clarify, no one is putting their life on the line by pursuing this matter
or even taking the kind of risk that is familiar to dissidents by taking
this up. It is one of the safest forms of dissent that I can remember for a
long time, and is treated much more tolerantly by centers of power, and the
elite intellectual world, than the norm. I have my suspicions as to why,
which I've explained in a form letter that I've been compelled to write in
self-defense because it is impossible to respond individually to the deluge
of mail I receive on this topic, which is drawing enormous amounts of energy
away from far more serious crimes of government, against Americans anyway.

I've also been intrigued by the emotional content of the "truth movement."
I'd never have the arrogance to demand, even suggest, that you change your
priorities and adopt mine. If you think it's important, by all means pursue
it. I'll keep to the priorities that seem to me far higher, for reasons
I've explained at length in print. Of course, I remain open-minded, and if
anyone can provide an argument in support of the demand that I shift
priorities, I'll look at it. So far there have been none.


----- Original Message -----
From: <edited>
To: "Noam Chomsky" <chomsky@MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: Your help is needed!


You are, as I have pointed out, the harbinger of intellectual, progressive
thinking in America. Your prominence alone merits you step into the fray on
the side of the "truth movement." You, professor, can make a difference.

"Of course, I remain open-minded, and if anyone can provide an argument in
support of the demand that I shift
priorities, I'll look at it."

1) I argue that you adjust your priorities because it appears to me that
there is a growing awareness that 9/11 was an inside job and a thinker of
your status officially asserting that 9/11 was an inside job might just
prove to be enough to push the movement to the next level. In short, I like
to believe we are reaching some sort of threshold. We need you because you
are prominent, respected, powerful.

2) I argue that you adjust your priorities because 9/11 is the cornerstone
of the racist xenophobic ideology that motivates Americans to support, as
you put it, "far more serious crimes of government." In other words attack
the vampire by striking the heart of the thing with a wooden spear as
opposed to trying to knock its fangs out with your bare fists.

3) Kill several birds with one stone by acknowledging the supreme role of
the intelligence sect in a world run by bankers and oligarchs. Hundreds,
perhaps thousands, of acts of false-flag terror have been committed in Iraq
to foment and further a civil war that without said acts of false-flag
terror simply would not be. Scores of black ops are currently being carried
out in Africa, Asia and former Soviet states. I personally believe that with
each successful operation the criminals become more bold, more daring, more
extreme. The cycle must be broken and it starts by exposing 9/11 for what it
was, an act of false-flag terror, an inside job.

4) I argue that by expressing your view that 9/11 was a false-flag terror
operation, an inside job, you will at the same time be announcing that you
will not permit another similar operation to happen. In short you will be
participating in a movement geared to prevent history from repeating itself
in the near future, something America definitely risks being the general
attention defecit disorder plaguing America's communal conscious.

5) I argue that by announcing that 9/11 was an inside job you will at the
same time be announcing that the foundation upon which the government bases
its argument to rescind our liberties is a myth. You will be engaging in a
debate aimed at reforming both foreign and domestic policy.

These five reasons immediately come to mind without much pondering.

On another subject, you are wrong to assert that researchers and writers
have not put their lives on the line to defeat the Bush family crime
syndicate and to expose the truth about 9/11. Two immediate examples come to
mind, perhaps foremost being Michael Ruppert, whose publication, From the
Wilderness, appears to have been infiltrated by a sex op while it was being
surveilled by the FBI. His workplace was destroyed, his staff partially
ruined, and, after years of battling the CIA, he was forced to leave the
country, fearing for his life. In the second instance, the mother of the
editor of insidermagazine.com was recently bludgeoned to death in her own
home as recourse to his investigation into the death of a Florida Highway
Patrolman, an investigation that allegedly eventually leads to Jeb Bush.

Going further, I am sure you know that joining the "truth movement" amounts,
in many cases to career suicide for anybody of any prominence. If you go on
the record and announce that 9/11 was an inside job you will be hounded,
ridiculed, harassed, perhapse even have your job threatened. You will lose
connections. You will alienate friends and family. This is the price you
will pay and I know you know it. Certainly this is your primary reason not
to enter the fray. You indeed have much to lose. But acting as if you are
above the "truth movement" and instead righteously engaged in debate
centered on "far greater crimes of government" is indeed shallow and could
be interpreted as a form of cowering.

From: Noam Chomsky [mailto:chomsky@MIT.EDU]
Sent: Sat 9/16/2006 5:21 PM
To: <edited>
Subject: Re: Your help is needed!



I can only repeat what I wrote. I am, first of all, amazed at the
extraordinary arrogance and fervor of the self-described "truth movement,"
which insists that I shift my priorities to theirs, something I can not
imagine doing; and second, at the complete absence of argument, exemplified
again in your letter, which gives not one single bit of evidence nor any
argument. I'm surprised that you do not see that.

I am also surprised by your willingness to accept the pathetic wailing about
the persecution of supporters of the "truth movement." Even if we were to
accept what they report as correct -- for which they provide no evidence --
it would not amount to a row of pins as compared with what is standard, and
expected, among those who devote themselves to combatting crimes of state.
And what has happened to Griffin, Falk, or anyone else who has taken a stand
on these matters?

If you want to engage in these quite riskless efforts, rather than other
issues that are, in my judgment, far more important (for reasons I've
explained in detail in print), and do indeed carry risks, then by all means
do so. I cannot dream of having the extraordinary arrogance and
self-righteousness to suggest that you change course and adopt my
priorities.


From: <edtited>
Sent: Tues 9/19/2006 10:21 AM
To: Noam Chomsky [mailto:chomsky@MIT.EDU]
Subject: Re: Your help is needed!

Re: "I cannot dream of having the extraordinary arrogance and self-righteousness to suggest that you change course and adopt my priorities."

Professor, that is exactly what you do in every book you write. They are filled with logical arguments and subtle threats designed to persuade readers to adust their attitudes and priorites and to act on the critical information you righteously convey. In fact, that is a large part of the reason I found your stuff so relevant and powerful, because you weren't afraid to say, "look people if we don't make some simple changes and adjust our priorities bad things will happen." You at one time were the voice of resistance and I think you do fully understand the arrogance and emotional appeal of some of those who research and write about 9/11.

My final appeal, my final argument that you change your priorities is also my first. You run the risk of your writing becoming largely irrelevant. The evidence is my bank statement. I read for approximately 2 hours every night and I buy one nonfiction book per week. Formerly, that money would have been spent on your books, your writing. Currently, it is not. Formerly my time would have been spent reading your essays and books. Currently it is not. It is that simple. In your writings address 9/11 for what it was, an act of false-flag terrorism, an inside job, or fall from the ranks of writers whose products are relevant.

Personally, I think someone needs to take to task the seemingly universal presumption amongst 9/11 researchers that there is something new and noteworthy about militant foreign nationals, sometimes with dubious backgrounds, being trained here to do all sorts of things. Nothing was special about Atta and co. They received the same treatment in America that scores of militants from abroad have received when they were trained by, amongst others, the School of Americas et al. In fact, if the government wanted to make it appear that the attacks of 9/11 came from El Salvador, Haiti, Uganda, Eastern Europe, China, anywhere, it would have simply leaked different information on different militant foreign nationals that were trained here to fly planes, shoot missiles, drive tanks, and kill people. You could write this essay in your sleep.

Anyway, it appears I am engaging in a futile argument. I will conclude that your fear of career-suicide is too much to overcome. I will also conclude that you have no interest in debating with me on the identities and motives of the perpetrators of 9/11, you taking "blowback" theory, while I argue that the crimes of that day were likely the acts of privatized military and intelligence contractors. And despite my aggressive approach, I do truly wish you all the best.

From: Noam Chomsky [mailto:chomsky@MIT.EDU]
Sent: Tue 9/19/2006 1:55 PM
To: <edited>
Subject: Re: Your help is needed!


I've never once suggested to anyone that they change their priorities and adopt mine -- except when I sign a fund-raising letter for some organization. I do write about the way the world looks to me, and if people find it convincing, they might change their priorities -- so I hope (I have no idea what you mean by "subtle threats": when I write, say, about the threat of nuclear war, it's not at all subtle). There's a sharp difference. For example, in this correspondence I haven't suggested that you should drop your commitment to the 9/11 movement and replace it with my concerns about nuclear war, environmental disaster, massive terror, destruction of Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, etc. If you ask my opinion, I'll tell you that I think your priorities are misplaced, but that's quite a separate matter. These distinctions should be kept clear. I hope they are.

The resistance never had anything like the arrogance and self-righteousness of the 911 movement, which, frankly, I've never seen before outside of circles that interest neither of us. Nor have I ever seen such extraordinary arrogance of the common claims of the 911 movement that if you don't agree with them you must be a coward afraid of your career. There's little I can think of less career-threatening than being involved in this. It doesn't even begin to compare with risks that I and others have taken, not even remotely. People who do take risks don't parade about their incredible courage, or posture about how they alone are not afraid. But if you are interested, you might want to know why my wife went back to college after 17 years because we had three children and i was facing a long prison sentence.

You can believe what you like, and buy what you like, but these comments really merit apology.

From: <edited>
Sent: Wed 9/20/2006 9:32 AM
To: Noam Chomsky [mailto:chomsky@MIT.EDU]
Subject: Re: Your help is needed!


Then please do accept my apology. I will not dilute it with excuses. I do hold you in the utmost respect, which I hope I have made clear.

You will find that I share your views on "nuclear war, environmental disaster, massive terror, destruction of Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine" and, of course, find your writings on these subjects enthralling and convincing. Nonetheless, I feel that one of the most dangerous illusions entertained when discussing these subjects is the official myth of 9/11. That myth is now the cornerstone of a world of illusions stemming from it and the destruction of that myth I see as one of the most important tasks to be undertaken by the wary, period. To restate my original query, your assistance in destroying this myth could prove to be monumental. As one of my fellow "conspiracy theorists" said to me, many academics and intellectuals within the establishment left hang on your every word. You do not need me to tell you this. For you to attack the official myth in any way, blatantly or subtly, would indeed make a difference, indeed more of a difference than I or the legions like me, could hope to make. Please help us. And yes, please forgive our arrogance.
 
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I see no reason not to believe that's actually Chomsky's response, other than to wonder if he's got time to reply to all the idiotic emails he must get. It's reasonably consistent with what he's said in the past.
 
Wow, like Realitybites said, I never thought I'd hear myself say this but... Way to go Chomsky!
 
A brief lesson to conspiraloons on how NOT to win friends and influence people:

Write to someone you claim to respect and honor and who has had a long, influential and illustrious career and try to win him over by utilizing the following methods in your first communication with him:

1) tell him he is no longer your "hero" because he doesn't agree with you
2) accuse him of doublethink
3) overstate your own importance
4) manufacture non-existent "risk" and "courage" of conspiraloons
5) misrepresent the truth with one of the stupidest CT lines of all - "pull it"
6) lie bald facedly about what conspiraloons have "proven"
7) deliver an ultimatum
8) call him a fraud and a limousine liberal
9) challenge him to "public debate" (even while you maintain internet anonymity yourself) at which you will "defeat" him
10) for good measure, call him unpatriotic

I guarantee you, this is a sure-fire way to get exactly the result you did not want to get.
 
The conceit of this "George Hayduke" twerp is unbelieveable. Who the hell is he to order an important guy like Noam Chomsky to drop everything he's doing and join the Loosers in their silly little war? And then insult him the whole time?

I'm appalled at the incredibly disrespectful tone of these letters. Even if you lack the basic courtesy skills that most of us learned by age four, you ought to have enough sense not to insult the people you're trying to win over. If I'd gotten that snot-dripping letter, I would have sent it back with the "your bad manners are exceeded only by your bad manners" rejoinder.

And I love how the letter-writer took out his own email address before posting it to the web, but left Chomsky's. I guess it's okay if Noam gets bot-spammed.

Chomsky owed this guy nothing at all, but he took the time to write three personal messages explaining his position. Most people would have been flattered by that, but this Looser couldn't even be bothered to say "thanks." If I got three personal letters from Noam Chomsky telling me to get over myself, I'd take a week off and re-think my life. Sadly, this lesson is probably wasted on "George Hayduke" and the rest of the Looser crowd.
 
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"The following analysis will show that Chomsky, a deep cover agent for the New World Order, a master of black propaganda whose true motives become clear with a sober and honest examination."
:dl:

These guys are brilliant!
 

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