No such thing as Eternity

[Beleth]

Eternity, according to Merriam-Webster, means "infinite time". I propose that this is a nonsense word.

Why? Because there will never be an infinite amount of time. No matter where you are in time, there will have been a finite amount of time that happened before the place where you are in time. And due to the linear nature of time, we have no idea of how much time hasn't passed yet.

I don't know where, or how, or when, time started. But there can't possibly be an infinite amount of it to anything which is subject to time, and if there is anything that isn't subject to time, then the word "time" is nonsense whether or not it's got the modifier "infinite" in front of it.

Nothing can possibly be "immortal" in the usual sense of that word. It may have lived arbitrarily long, but since the end of "infinite time" never actually happens, you can't say that that being will exist until then. The most realistic definition of the word "immortal" is "something that hasn't died yet" - in which case, I'm immortal, and so are you.




Then again, maybe this whole post is just a shot of Nyquil talking.

 

[Iacchus]

Time and space come together in the here and now! Always has and always will.

Ever hear the expression, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life?" Or, "No matter where you go you're there?"

This is what the expression of Eternity is all about, through the Eternal Moment. In fact this is where the Big Bang has its origins. It would also be fair to say that time has always existed as well, it's just that it can't be measured without the existence of space, in which case all you have is Eternity which, is all we've ever had.

 

[Iacchus]

The Vision of Black Elk

Excerpt from Joseph Campbell's, The Power of Myth ...

The Vision of Black Elk ...

He says, "I saw myself on the central mountain of the world, the highest place, and I had a vision because I was seeing in the sacred manner of the world." And the sacred central mountain was Harney Peak in South Dakota. And then he says, "But the central mountain is everywhere."

That is a real mythological realization. It distinguishes between the local cult image, Harney Peak, and its connotation as the center of the world. The center of the world is the axis mundi, the central point, the pole around which all revolves. The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together. Movement is time, but stillness is eternity. Realizing how this moment of your life is actually a moment of eternity, and experiencing the eternal aspect of what you're doing in the temporal experience -- this is the mythological experience.

 

[Yahweh]

Eternity, according to Merriam-Webster, means "infinite time". I propose that this is a nonsense word.

Will you change your mind if you crossed the event horizon?

 

[Agammamon]

Well, just because you don't know how much time left in the future doesn't mean that it isn't infinite.

Don't look at it as a literal phrase but rather as a concept like a ray. Starts at one point and continues forever.

 

[Beleth]

Ever hear the expression, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life?" Or, "No matter where you go you're there?"

Ever hear the They Might Be Giants song that goes "You're older than you've ever been - and now you're even older"?

The Eternal Moment is not Eternity. Yes, of course it's always "now." But that doesn't mean that the phrase "in the future" has no meaning. Or is that what you are arguing?

It would also be fair to say that time has always existed as well, it's just that it can't be measured without the existence of space, in which case all you have is Eternity which, is all we've ever had.

If time has always existed, how did we get to this point in time? No, it is not fair to say that time can exist without space, and without objects in space that are undergoing change. Time is how we measure change. Without change, there is no time.

Infinite time is inherently unable to be experienced.


Black Elk was hallucinating, which is fine for a basis for a religion but is pretty bad as a basis for scientific theory.

Originally posted by Yahweh
Will you change your mind if you crossed the event horizon?

No, because I still won't experience infinite time. You will think I am from your viewpoint, but I won't be from mine. From my vantage point, I'll still experience normal time while the rest of the universe flickers and dies around me.


(edited for formatting)

 

[Iacchus]

Is existence absolute? When's the last time it winked out on us by the way? Now, is it possible that eternity has been with us before the advent of time? Time is merely conceptual anyway isn't it? Sure you can go back 20 billion years before the Universe began. Why not? I just did.

 

[Beleth]

Well, just because you don't know how much time left in the future doesn't mean that it isn't infinite.

The only way to tell if time is infinite, as opposed to merely being arbitrarily large, is to experience the end of it. And since by definition you can't come to the end of something infinite, there is no sense in calling time infinite.

I'm not saying that time isn't arbitrarily large. I'm saying that there is no time where one can say with certainty that time is infinite. If time is finite then the finite nature of time can, conceptually, be proven by coming to the end of it. There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of infinite time.



(edited for typo and clarity, it's quarter to 6 AM my time, cut me some slack)

 

[Iacchus]

Ever hear the They Might Be Giants song that goes "You're older than you've ever been - and now you're even older"?

The Eternal Moment is not Eternity. Yes, of course it's always "now." But that doesn't mean that the phrase "in the future" has no meaning. Or is that what you are arguing?

The future is just a notion, that never arrives.

If time has always existed, how did we get to this point in time? No, it is not fair to say that time can exist without space, and without objects in space that are undergoing change. Time is how we measure change. Without change, there is no time.

Is time contingent upon space? Or, is space contingent upon time? Time is just a measurement. It's not that which is being measured.

Black Elk was hallucinating, which is fine for a basis for a religion but is pretty bad as a basis for scientific theory.

It's so easy to dismiss isn't it?

 

[The GM]

The future is just a notion, that never arrives.

Damn! And I keep sockin' away money every month for retirement in preparation for the future. That's it! I'm liquidating! Party at the GM's house! I'd mention a future date, but it'll never arrive.

*big smirk*

Aw, c'mon. I'm just teasing ya.

 

[Keneke]

The only way to tell if time is infinite, as opposed to merely being arbitrarily large, is to experience the end of it. And since by definition you can't come to the end of something infinite, there is no sense in calling time infinite.

Please remember that the concept of an unlimited thing is a pure construct of the mind. Eternity, infinity, omnipotence, and omniscience are all things that, by definition, cannot be experienced, but only approximated for calculations. It's just another unfalsifiable, like God.

 

[evildave]

If you think an infinite quantity of anything exists, all you have to do is prove it.

A minor caution: you'll need an infinite amount of time and resources to prove that this 'infinite' thing is truly 'infinite'.

Get back to me when you're done.

 

[roger]

If you think an infinite quantity of anything exists, all you have to do is prove it.

A minor caution: you'll need an infinite amount of time and resources to prove that this 'infinite' thing is truly 'infinite'.

I don't think that is necessarily true. I can prove that there are an infinite number of even positive integers with much less, and very finite time and resources. Of course, you were refering to 'real' things, not mathematical concepts, I'm not trying to twist the issue.

However, once we understand TLOP well enough, it may fall out as a consequence that time will continue to exist forever. In that case, prove TLOP with sufficient rigor, and you'll have proved that time will never end.

In general: if TLOP requires something exists with infinite quantity, then we can prove it exists w/o enumerating them all. If TLOP makes it possible for something to exist with infinite quantity, it may be possible to gather evidence to show that the universe does in fact contain an infinite amount of this material.

 

[Tricky]

Didn't we cover this?

 

[Iacchus]

Damn! And I keep sockin' away money every month for retirement in preparation for the future. That's it! I'm liquidating! Party at the GM's house! I'd mention a future date, but it'll never arrive.

*big smirk*

Aw, c'mon. I'm just teasing ya.

Yes, but things never quite work out the way you plan them now do they?

 

[Beleth]

It's so easy to dismiss isn't it?

Oh, absolutely not! It has taken years of hard work at adhering to very demanding standards and analyzing numerous data to come to the conclusion I have.

But that's because I'm a skeptic. A cynic would find it easy to dismiss. But skepticism is much harder.

 

[Robin]

From Beleth:

Eternity, according to Merriam-Webster, means "infinite time". I propose that this is a nonsense word.

With due respect to the folks at Merriam-Webster I don't think that this is what most theists mean when they say eternity. I think they mean something more like "outside of time" or perhaps "independent of time".

For example Beatrice in Dante's Paradiso:

How could be before
Which is of Time, before Time was? Or how
After of Time, if Time should be no more?

or in the old saying "God invented time, Man invented haste"

I believe St Augustine of Hippo had a lot to say on the subject.

 

[Iacchus]

Oh, absolutely not! It has taken years of hard work at adhering to very demanding standards and analyzing numerous data to come to the conclusion I have.

But that's because I'm a skeptic. A cynic would find it easy to dismiss. But skepticism is much harder.

What, are you saying you believe in absolues?

 

[Beleth]

With due respect to the folks at Merriam-Webster I don't think that this is what most theists mean when they say eternity. I think they mean something more like "outside of time" or perhaps "independent of time".

That's what the word "timeless" is for. I've used it too. If there is a God, He is not subject to time - He is timeless. He is not "eternal", which to me implies being subject to time but simply not ever coming to an end.

What I'm saying is that time is necessarily experienced like a moving point on a number line, and that although you can put an arrow on the end of a number line to represent that it goes to infinity, you can never draw a point on the number line to (accurately) represent infinity. Infinity can't be represented by a point, and the only descriptions of time that have any meaning would be represented on a number line as points (or line segments bounded by points).

 

[The GM]

Yes, but things never quite work out the way you plan them now do they?

True, true.
But better to plan for something than to plan for nothing. If you don't think that's true, just ask any elderly person who is living in a government subsidized box and subsisting off of welfare if they think their quality of life would have been better had they socked away some money. As the faithful would be quick to point out, no day is promised to us. OTOH, that's no excuse for foolishly declaring that the future may never come and so WTH, I'm not making plans at all. YMMV.