Elliot, for what it's worth. I was a missionary for two years. Granted, being a Mormon I wasn't a true Scotsman...er Christian. But I do understand the principles. I was trying to show what a non believer would think of such items. I'm glad that you had an opportunity to respond. I hope you understand that your explanations while interesting and might seem to answer the questions don't actually, unless of course you accept these things on faith. Let's look at a few.
Please don't take this as mocking. It is difficult to discuss these issues with out offending someone. I don't accept salvation or damnation so I'm not going to talk about them with reverence. I will however avoid gratuitous remarks.
elliotfc said:
The reality above the reason. Sin is the reality of the situation, and Christianity makes absolutely no sense to someone who does not accept the concept of sin (behavior that does not correspond to objective moral standards).
To be born into sin is antithetical to any definition that I can find. On the other hand to dismiss the concept based simply on definition would be pedantic.
However, if you accept that sin is a deliberate act then one can't be born having done something deliberate that one did not do.
Sin = not sin. It just doesn't work.
If it is some ethereal concept that Christians accept without really understanding then that is another thing.
It's genetic. We're all in this together. My poor eyesight isn't punishment, but reality. To be born into sin does not mean God will eternally hate us and condemn us to hell; he gave us the way to overcome this reality.
Again, the usage of the word sin, in this instance, must transcend the classical usage of the word since sin is a deliberate act and being born isn't, in and of itself sin.
RandFan
Is god all just and all merciful?
I think so.
Not really. Such absolutes are not so easily reconciled. It is human nature to try and resolve such issues. In the past the Sun was carried across the sky by gods. Diseases were the product of sin and good will the product of good deeds. But then someone noticed that good things happened to wicked people and therefore it was decreed that god makes it to rain on the just and the unjust.
One way to avoid god's wrath was to transfer sin to a prized possession (usually an animal) and offer it as sacrifice.
He is just in that all evil deeds have to be addressed and rectified. He is merciful in that all sinners, no matter how evil, have the opportunity to repent. But that repentance does not mean that the sins no longer have meaning. The penitent has to admit the sin and understand just how the sin affected others and God. The mercy is given to a person who capitulates. You might not consider that mercy at all; those who "go to hell" refuse to capitulate and are allowed to eternally rebel against God. That is divine justice/mercy.
So, all sin was transferred via a mysterious process to Christ some 2,000 + years ago. The process worked forward but not backward (depending on who you talk to) and Christ was sacrificed instead of animals. We don't really know how Christ took on the sins or what was really involved we just know it was painful and that he bled from every pore.
The sin has to be addressed and rectified.
This is logical.
Once that has happened, we can enter into the fullness of his grace.
Ok, if you accept that sort of thing.
The mercy comes in because he makes it possible to overcome sin; we can't do it ourselves.
This really means nothing. It is simply saying "god did it". And that is fine but don't expect anyone to accept such a statement based solely on logic.
God had to conquer sin. This is how he chose to do it.
A problematic and poorly designed plan. It doomed millions to hell without any option of even hearing of Christ.
Christians accept that. A divine plan is perfectly sensible...
Sensible to whom? Not to all the people who lived before Christ and not to all of the people who lived in Asia, the Pacific Islands, and the Western Hemisphere before missionaries. I find that neither divine nor sensible.
...a human being is more than welcome to judge a divine plan (as you do) but a gift is to be accepted, and not scoffed at.
{scoffing turned off temporarily}
If you scoff at the gift, surely you'd admit that it would be just for the gift to be rescinded, as to scoff at it is to reject it.
If Christianity were the only faith or at least one that was head and shoulders above the rest I could be tempted to play a Pascal's wager, but then I'm sure god would not be impressed. I think he wants his believers to be true believers. So I don't really think cinching the deal is all that necessary on your part. And you can be certain that I am no more in fear of the Hebrew God as I am of The Norse Gods, the Muslim God, the Pagan Gods, Zeus or any of the many, many gods.
Only God could take on the sins of everyone.
Yes, and at one time only God could move the Sun around the Earth and only God could create a carbon Molecule and only God could travel outside the regions of our planet.
God's realm shrinks daily.
Satan asks the same question in the Passion of the Christ Gibson movie thing.
I'm a huge Gibson fan. He is great and I plan on seeing the movie. I love movie lines. I wish you could have quoted it. I have another.
“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist”
--Verbal Kint AKA Keyser Soze (Usual Suspects)
I can think of a better trick.
