No excuse for not testing for explosives

[twinstead]

People like me would speculate less if the investigators had simply followed national fire standards and tested for and ruled out the possibility of explosives or incendiary devices. The odd failure to follow this protocol is bound to spark some curiosity and fuel conspiracy theories. It was such a major (and tragic) event. Why ignore these protocols?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and submit that you would never be convinced 911 wasn't an "inside job" no matter WHAT any investigation turned up if it validated what the NIST said. This is about world view and politics to you, not about facts and evidence. This fact just oozes from every post you make!

If it walks like an irrational ideologue, and quacks like an irrational ideologue, well goldarn it, it must be an irrational ideologue.

 

[Sabrina]

Did we run him off or something?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Maybe his vaguery was creating such a strong vacuum in his head that the suction became overwhelming and caused an implosion.

Or, maybe he's quickly Googling up some responses. Who knows?

 

[Seymour Butz]

FM 5-250 Explosives & Demolition

http://www.militarynewbie.com/pubs/FM 5-250 Explosives And Demolitions Manual.pdf​

Wowzers.

More great stuff.

 

[Drudgewire]

Maybe his vaguery was creating such a strong vacuum in his head that the suction became overwhelming and caused an implosion.

Oooh, I'm going to write a book about how they used huge suction machines to suck in the sound of the explosions during the controlled demolition. I'll make millions!!!

Crap, I just gave it away for free.

 

[ComsatAngel2017]

Did we run him off or something?

Vampires + Garlic.
Superman + Kryptonite.
Twoofers + Facts.

Works every time!

 

[T.A.M.]

Maybe his vaguery was creating such a strong vacuum in his head that the suction became overwhelming and caused an implosion. [qimg]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/elmondohummus/826.gif[/qimg]

Or, maybe he's quickly Googling up some responses. Who knows?

"I have a real life and a real job unlike you idiots" response from him coming in 5....4...3....2...


TAM

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Oooh, I'm going to write a book about how they used huge suction machines to suck in the sound of the explosions during the controlled demolition. I'll make millions!!!

Crap, I just gave it away for free.

D'oh!!!

Damn this internet and it's propensity to expose our stream-of-consciousness musings. Damn this!!!!

 

[ElMondoHummus]

"I have a real life and a real job unlike you idiots" response from him coming in 5....4...3....2...


TAM

Well, I do agree with one thing: His life is indeed unlike ours. His world is less rational, for starters.

 

[Kent1]

Vampires + Garlic.
Superman + Kryptonite.
Twoofers + Facts.

Works every time!

Im sure he's greatly embarrassed by now.
What I hate is when you have someone to stupid to be embarrassed.

We'll see which column Derek Johnson falls under in the next few days.

 

[George 152]

Im sure he's greatly embarrassed by now.
What I hate is when you have someone to stupid to be embarrassed.

We'll see which column Derek Johnson falls under in the next few days.

An embarrassed 'Truther' ?
You can only tell by their disappearance after being corrected

 

[CurtC]

IIRC, a doubling of energy results in only a 3 dB increase in sound, which is about the human detection level.

Humans can detect a change in volume of about 1 dB. That's how come we came to use that oddball measure in the first place.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Humans can detect a change in volume of about 1 dB. That's how come we came to use that oddball measure in the first place.

Yeah, sound measurement is a funny thing. (where's jj when you need him?)

(from memory)

IIRC, 3-5 dB is about the average "doubling factor". I think OSHA uses 5dB and the DoD uses 3 dB. Doubling factor means that a 3-5 dB increase would be percieved as "twice as loud".

 

[Elizabeth I]

Don't forget FBI agent and whistleblower Coleen Rowley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleen_Rowley

I left her out on purpose because I'm sure our guest would only say she was one of them. You know, THEM.

See? Now I only have to find a deranged British noble or an eccentric Norwegian guy who likes to spell his first name in an odd way who likes my paper, and I'll be up 2-0 (evidence and peer/Peer review) against the Truth Movement.

I'll peer at it for a moment.

Now I'll view it a second time.

OK, that's your theory peer-reviewed, truth movement style.

Dave

Oh my nickname is that of an eccentric and strangely spelled Norwegian guy I met ages ago. Does that count?

So let me peer...

Ok, approved!

Your queen approves.

 

[R.Mackey]

Yeah, sound measurement is a funny thing. (where's jj when you need him?)

(from memory)

IIRC, 3-5 dB is about the average "doubling factor". I think OSHA uses 5dB and the DoD uses 3 dB. Doubling factor means that a 3-5 dB increase would be percieved as "twice as loud".

Decibels are so called because 10 of them make one "Bel," or an order of magnitude difference in amplitude. Therefore, a 3 dB increase means a doubling of pressure amplitude. 10^3/10 = 2.0.

Where it gets confusing, however, is 6 dB is a doubling of RMS amplitude or of power. This is because power scales as the amplitude squared, and when you square inside a logarithm it's the same as multiplying by 2 outside the logarithm.

For typical sounds, 6 dB is the correct measure, because they are periodic signals. For a single shockwave created by an explosive, 3 dB is more appropriate, since it's aperiodic. [/Dr. Science]

 

[Army of One]

Do you have a link to that military pamphlet?

Unfortunately, I don't have a link, as I was just going off a "Demolition Card" I had from my days on active duty, which consists mostly of "Hasty Calculations" (meant to be carried and used as a reference by engineers while in the field). The basic equation for Steel Cutting Charges is:

Pounds TNT=3/8 x Area of Cross Section (in sq. inches).

Then to calculate the weight for RDX (or any other type of HE), you just need to divide by that particular explosive's R.E. factor (1.60 for RDX, for example).

It would be interesting to show troofs what they're proposing when they say, " Just slap some explosives willy nilly against the columns. No preparation is needed."

I'm sure most truthers would simply ignore the info, as is common for them when dealing with inconvenient facts. But you're certainly right though- proper placement plays a huge role when it comes to the efficient/effective use of explosives. In some situations, a difference of only a few inches in placement can mean the difference between success and failure.

The link to FM 5-250 that BigAl posted will provide much greater detail, and will hopefully be of use to you when trying to get through to truthers.

FM 5-250 Explosives & Demolition

[Link]​

I still find it interesting that as an active duty combat engineer a few years ago, it took me several weeks to get my hands on a copy of FM 5-250, yet any civilian with an internet connection can go online and get it instantly.

Table 6-1 Safe distances for blasting near radio transmitters. 50KW - 3,000 meters.

All of WTC was well within the distance that made the use of wire or radio control detonation a high-risk move for the installer. A few Megawatts radiated from the antennas on the North tower,

Interesting point.

By the way, didn't the Twin Towers cause multiple problems for the first responders' radio communications anytime they were in the buildings (in 1993 and on 9/11)? Yet, many truthers will claim that the demolition was initiated by conspirators off-site by using radio controlled detonators, apparently without any problems.

 

[Oystein]

Unfortunately, I don't have a link, as I was just going off a "Demolition Card" I had from my days on active duty, which consists mostly of "Hasty Calculations" (meant to be carried and used as a reference by engineers while in the field). The basic equation for Steel Cutting Charges is:

Pounds TNT=3/8 x Area of Cross Section (in sq. inches).

Then to calculate the weight for RDX (or any other type of HE), you just need to divide by that particular explosive's R.E. factor (1.60 for RDX, for example).
...

Cool and approachable info for know-nothings like me

Just to clarify: The cross section area would apply to the net steel surface, right? So if we have a box-shaped column 10"x10", steel plates 1" across, that would be 36 square-inches (4 sides times 1x9), and not 100 (10x10)?

How sensitive is that formula to the shape of the beam? Would 36 square inches box column need the same amount as 36 square inches T-bar?

 

[dafydd]

Did we run him off or something?

Perhaps he has seen the error of his ways.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I once mail-ordered a Hello-Kitty "massage stick" and had it sent directly from Japan to a woman friend.

Well, this is not the place to describe what part of her body this stick is intended to massage...
I still get a weekly ad mail from "a friend in Japan".
So yeah, Hello Kitty is much more naughty than most realize!

Those are for educational purposes ONLY!

 

[BigAl]

Un

The link to FM 5-250 that BigAl posted will provide much greater detail, and will hopefully be of use to you when trying to get through to truthers.

I still find it interesting that as an active duty combat engineer a few years ago, it took me several weeks to get my hands on a copy of FM 5-250, yet any civilian with an internet connection can go online and get it instantly.
Interesting point.

By the way, didn't the Twin Towers cause multiple problems for the first responders' radio communications anytime they were in the buildings (in 1993 and on 9/11)? Yet, many truthers will claim that the demolition was initiated by conspirators off-site by using radio controlled detonators, apparently without any problems.

There was a day when we had public libraries with books like The DuPont Blasting Handbook on the open shelves. I read it.

As for the WTC radios, it's on my list of 9/11 decisions that deserve criminal prosecution. A neighbor was a retired FDNY communications engineer who would blame purchase decisions for the system on mayor Giuliani. This was pre-2001.