No alcohol for under-15s?

[Ivor the Engineer]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/dec/17/donaldson-alcohol-guidance-children

Parents who give their children watered-down wine in the hope of introducing them to sensible drinking habits are misguided, according to the chief medical officer, who today recommends that no young person under the age of 15 should drink at all.

Sir Liam Donaldson, who announced this week he would be standing down in May, said that parents should set their children a good example and 15- to 17-year-olds should be allowed to drink only under parental supervision.

Studies showed that alcohol was damaging to young people, he said, but there had been no guidance for parents before.

"It is a major public health problem. Alcohol has a ruinous effect on the foundations of adult life. We see the tyranny of alcohol in our towns and city centres and too often childhood is robbed of its clear-eyed innocence and replaced with a befuddled futility that comes with the availability of dirt-cheap alcohol," he said.

...

He debunked the notion that children would learn to handle alcohol better if introduced to it at an early age.

"There really is no evidence to support this at all," he said. "The idea that you give children alcohol early on and they will be OK is not supported by evidence at all. The earlier they are introduced to alcohol the more they get a taste for it and are likely to end up as heavily drinking adults or binge drinking in their childhood."

He said half a million 11- to 15-year-olds will have been drunk in the last four weeks. Every week 11- to 17-year-olds drink the equivalent of 9m pints of beer or 2m bottles of wine. Every year, 7,600 11- to 17-year-olds end up in hospital because of alcohol.

Scientific evidence shows that alcohol does young people particular damage, the guidelines say. Apart from contributing to injuries from falls, fire, drowning and asphyxiation, alcohol affects the developing brain, causing depression, mental health problems, long-term memory problems and difficulty finding words. It damages the liver and reduces levels of growth hormone, bone density in boys and levels of testosterone and oestrogen.

...

Is he talking nonsense?

Would minimum pricing have the desired effect?

 

[Aitch]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/dec/17/donaldson-alcohol-guidance-children



Is he talking nonsense?

Yes and no. He may be correct about some children being affected in the way he claims, but he is ignoring social, and probably other, factors.

Would minimum pricing have the desired effect?

If the parents are buying, unless the 'minimum is ludicrously high, whigh should it?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Yes and no. He may be correct about some children being affected in the way he claims, but he is ignoring social, and probably other, factors.

Donaldson claims parents are the most important role models for children. So parents who don't know or care where their kids are at night and what they are doing, and those that set a bad example to their children when they drink alcohol appear to have been included in his thinking. What other factors do you think he should have considered?

If the parents are buying, unless the 'minimum is ludicrously high, whigh should it?

I think the idea is that the lower the price of a product is, people will consume more of it. If you raise the price, demand for the product will be reduced and people will consume less. Does this economic principle not apply to alcohol? If not, why not?

 

[JWideman]

Right, because telling kids they can't have something until they're adults is a sure way to guarantee they'll never have any interest in it nor binge on it when they get the chance. Look how well it works in the US. You never hear about alcoholic 12 year olds.

 

[Aitch]

Donaldson claims parents are the most important role models for children. So parents who don't know or care where their kids are at night and what they are doing, and those that set a bad example to their children when they drink alcohol appear to have been included in his thinking. What other factors do you think he should have considered?

Donaldson claims... Doesn't mean he's right.

Other factors? For early teenagers, peer pressure and general rebelliousness. Not to mention family circumstances.

As for the binge drinking with older teens (and even older people), social pressures in general, including the economy and its effects. Alcohol is/can be an escape mechanism.

I think the idea is that the lower the price of a product is, people will consume more of it. If you raise the price, demand for the product will be reduced and people will consume less. Does this economic principle not apply to alcohol? If not, why not?

He mentions 'watered-down wine'. In the UK, at least, wine drinkers pay through the nose as it is; increasing the duty on it would have to be at a very high level to make much difference.

And from what I remember of the economics I studied (we are talking 30 years ago here!) demand for alcohol is not perfectly elastic - would take a major hike in the duty to affect it by that much.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Well if he cites the research he is basing his conclusions on, I can evaluate it for myself...

 

[JJM 777]

I imagine that I will introduce my son to beer well before life begins, which happens around 12.

 

[AvalonXQ]

He claims there's no evidence that children introduced to alcohol early abuse it less later.
Is there such evidence?

 

[Ian Osborne]

Regarding the price thing, alcohol is much cheaper in real terms than it was a few decades ago, and consumption is higher. I know correlation is not causation, but there does seem to be a case to answer.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Well if he cites the research he is basing his conclusions on, I can evaluate it for myself...

There's a basic overview of minimum pricing in Scotland here:

http://www.bma.org.uk/sc/health_promotion_ethics/alcohol/mythbustingminimumpricingscotland.jsp

And here's a study which explains why the price of alcoholic drinks in supermarkets is related to how much people consume:

http://www.aerc.org.uk/insightPages/libraryIns0068.html

 

[daenku32]

I know that's not the US, but I imagine that if I introduce the kid to Imperial Porters before they start drinking the various light beers, that'll keep them from drinking more than one in a night.

 

[Deetee]

He [Donaldson] said half a million 11- to 15-year-olds will have been drunk in the last four weeks.

That's about 15% of the 11-15 year-olds.
This cannot be right, surely?

 

[six7s]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/dec/17/donaldson-alcohol-guidance-children

Studies showed that alcohol was damaging to young people, he said, but there had been no guidance for parents before.

Is he talking nonsense?

Yup

 

[JJM 777]

That's about 15% of the 11-15 year-olds.
This cannot be right, surely?

Sounds typical for Finland at least, if you share it in this way:
11 years = 5% drunk within last month
12 years = 10% drunk within last month
13 years = 15% drunk within last month
14-15 years = 22.5% drunk within last month

 

[Professor Yaffle]

That's about 15% of the 11-15 year-olds.
This cannot be right, surely?

Yeah, it must be more than that...

 

[AvalonXQ]

That's about 15% of the 11-15 year-olds.
This cannot be right, surely?

Don't be discouraged. If you set a quota, I bet you can double those numbers by this time next year.
I'd recommend you start with jello shots.

 

[Kestrel]

Sounds typical for Finland at least, if you share it in this way:
11 years = 5% drunk within last month
12 years = 10% drunk within last month
13 years = 15% drunk within last month
14-15 years = 22.5% drunk within last month

One must be careful with how numbers are presented.

Are those figures for "had at least one drink" or "were intoxicated"?

 

[daenku32]

One must be careful with how numbers are presented.

Are those figures for "had at least one drink" or "were intoxicated"?

With people at that age there typically isn't much of a difference.

 

[I Ratant]

I imagine that I will introduce my son to beer well before life begins, which happens around 12.

.
I was introduced to beer about that time.
It was not a nice thing to have done to me.
But by the time I got to 35 or so, I was able to kick the habit, and haven't touched a drop in over 35 years.
I never smoked, although both parents did.
They impressed on me, especially Dad, that it was a dirty filthy habit.
Not so with beer.. and my favorite, Manhattans.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

.
I was introduced to beer about that time.
It was not a nice thing to have done to me.
But by the time I got to 35 or so, I was able to kick the habit, and haven't touched a drop in over 35 years.
I never smoked, although both parents did.
They impressed on me, especially Dad, that it was a dirty filthy habit.
Not so with beer.. and my favorite, Manhattans.

My story is very similar - I haven't had an alcoholic drink for over 10 years. Although I smoked, drank and drugged.

In Australia there is a campaign at the moment about not giving kids any alcohol until 18 yo. "Latest studies" show the alcohol affects the developing brain a lot more radically than the older brain that can lead to developmental and chemical dependency problems moving forward.

When I get a chance I will try and hunt some of the studies up.