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NICK REDFERN: TRUTH ABOUT ROSWELL

turtle said:
UFO researcher Nick Redfern’s new book on Roswell. It wasn’t aliens, Mogul, weather balloons, or crash test dummies. (all explanations put forth by the U.S. government.) According to Redfern, it was this:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2005/06/21.html

....Surprisingly, he said these vehicles were piloted by Japanese POWs, who were possibly the victims of diabolical human experimentation, not unlike what Mengele did in Germany.
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It was the Japanese who performed diabolical experiments on American POW's -- NOT the other way around!
 
Re: Roswell

songstress said:
Do you believe this story, turtle? I don't.
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Why don't you songstress?

I don't, not quite, but then, I haven't read the book, and I don't have enough information about his theory. I'm certainly curious about it. I'm not naive about our government, or any gov however.

But it seems to me that somewhere before Redfern's book came out, other researchers would have stumbled across this. There have been bits here and there about it but seems ufo researchers were quick to dismiss them; probably because it doesn't fit into their personal theories.

It's all extremely interesting in regards to the 'Roswell Legend' that's for sure.
 
Re: Re: Roswell

turtle said:
I don't, not quite, but then, I haven't read the book, and I don't have enough information about his theory. I'm certainly curious about it. I'm not naive about our government, or any gov however.

But it seems to me that somewhere before Redfern's book came out, other researchers would have stumbled across this. There have been bits here and there about it but seems ufo researchers were quick to dismiss them; probably because it doesn't fit into their personal theories.
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So maybe you are tempted by the theory because it fits into your personal theory?

That's not really scepticism is it now.
 
Re: Re: Roswell

turtle said:
I don't, not quite, but then, I haven't read the book, and I don't have enough information about his theory. I'm certainly curious about it. I'm not naive about our government, or any gov however.
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Holy cow - I read the OP and thought you were ridiculing the theory! You mean you actually think it might be plausible?!?
 
jmercer said:
What garbage. For once, I agree with songstress.
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I have no problem with people thinking something is "garbage" but it would be nice to hear why one thinks it's garbage.

Since I haven't read the book, and I don't think anyone here has, since it just came out a few days ago, I can't comment much more on Redfern's theories.

On the face of it it's interesting -- that is notthe same as saying "I believe it."

So for those who think it's "garbage" I'd like to hear why.
 
Re: Re: NICK REDFERN: TRUTH ABOUT ROSWELL

aggle-rithm said:
It was the Japanese who performed diabolical experiments on American POW's -- NOT the other way around!
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What are you saying aggle-rithm?

that, because the Japanese performed "diabolical experiments on American POWS" it's impossible that others, including the U.S., would do the same?

Or do you mean something else?
 
Re: Re: Re: Roswell

Ashles said:
So maybe you are tempted by the theory because it fits into your personal theory?
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I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

I am "tempted" to use your word, as inaccurate as it is, because I am a conspiracy and UFO buff, because, as I've said, it's intersesting, and because yes, it could be true. It could also be nonsense. I'm not making up my mind, since I don't have enough information. That wouldn't really be scepticism now, would it?

Personally, my "personal theory" is that it's aliens, or at least, I think it would be great if it were, but I don't think there's quite enough evidence, and way too much muddled stuff out there on Roswell, to know. So much for your "personal theory" on my "personal theory." :D

Is your comment based on my "I'm not naive about gov." remark? Honestly, are you telling me you are naive then? shrug.

That's not really scepticism is it now.
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LOL, well, sure, since I'm not a skeptic, that's fine.
 
turtle said:
I have no problem with people thinking something is "garbage" but it would be nice to hear why one thinks it's garbage.

Since I haven't read the book, and I don't think anyone here has, since it just came out a few days ago, I can't comment much more on Redfern's theories.

On the face of it it's interesting -- that is notthe same as saying "I believe it."

So for those who think it's "garbage" I'd like to hear why.
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Very well.

Except where small numbers of people are involved, it is impossible to conceal a conspiracy of these proportions. Eventually - albeit, often some years later - information on all significant "black" programs eventually surfaces. (And some insignificant programs, too!) What this person and others are postulating is a massive cover-up by the US government for over half a century.

The so-called "Roswell Incident" occurred during the summer of 1947. In 58 years, this guy and others are suggesting that the United States Government - a government that couldn't keep the secrets of the Manhatten Project; couldn't keep the locations of it's nuclear subs a secret during the cold war; couldn't keep the names of it's double-agents and spies safe; couldn't keep Popular Science and Revell Plastic Models from showing damned close replicas of the F117 Stealth Fighter and B-2 Spirit prior to any public mention; couldn't keep WaterGate a secret; and couldn't hide it's level of intelligence incompetence post 9/11 - has successfully provided a cover-up so complete, so foolproof, that only the vaguest of rumors have escaped. Not one witness, document, scrap of proof or other evidence has surfaced in 58 years. Nothing but "talk" has kept this rediculous bit of urban legend alive... that and the efforts of the good folks in Roswell who make money off of it, of course. :)

There's an old saying, credited to Benjamin Franklin: "Two people can keep a secret, as long as one of them is dead."

:)
 
turtle said:
Personally, my "personal theory" is that it's aliens, or at least, I think it would be great if it were, but I don't think there's quite enough evidence, and way too much muddled stuff out there on Roswell, to know. So much for your "personal theory" on my "personal theory."
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Why bother having this personal theory? Why not just chalk it up to weather balloons and a UFO rumor machine gone wild?

What's the best piece of evidence that it might have been UFOs?

~~ Paul
 
Re: Re: Re: NICK REDFERN: TRUTH ABOUT ROSWELL

turtle said:
What are you saying aggle-rithm?

that, because the Japanese performed "diabolical experiments on American POWS" it's impossible that others, including the U.S., would do the same?

Or do you mean something else?
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I'm saying that there is no evidence that American surgeons performed dissections on still-living and conscious POW's, while there is ample evidence that Japanese surgeons did.

Not to say that America was blameless -- the government's treatment of Japanese-Americans was despicable -- but it seems fashionable these days to portray the Japanese in WWII as innocent victims, even when making up preposterous stories to explain imaginary alien sightings. That's a little bit of a sore spot for me.
 
You can find a rather interesting interview with Redfern Here concerning his book. However, I don't see where he produces any documentation that suggests that any of these experiments actually happened. In the case of the USAF reports, the Brazel debris field was determined to have been produced by a project MOGUL/NYU flight (1994 report), the reports of alien bodies were people who might have seen the parachute dummy drops from high altitude (1997 report) and the Glenn Dennis story was nothing but a mixing of events that transpired in the 1950s (1997 report). All of these reports were based on documentation and events that actually happened. There were NYU flights that could have produced the debris field, there were people who fit the Dennis story but not at the time of the incident, and the dummy drops did occur in New Mexico (but not in 1947). However, what Redfern appears to have produced is a theory based on hearsay stories from people who say they were in the know about this. There are no documents that suggest any such project was in existence or that even such tests were being conducted. It holds about much evidence as those who claim the Roswell incident was produced by the crash of an alien spaceship.

Both AF reports can be found here
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: NICK REDFERN: TRUTH ABOUT ROSWELL

aggle-rithm said:
I'm saying that there is no evidence that American surgeons performed dissections on still-living and conscious POW's, while there is ample evidence that Japanese surgeons did.
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Okay. Didn't know if you meant we weren't capable of, or, that Redfern doesn't have proof.

(then again, since we haven't read Redfern, we don't know yet. We don't know how valid or invalid his sources are.)

Not to say that America was blameless -- the government's treatment of Japanese-Americans was despicable -- but it seems fashionable these days to portray the Japanese in WWII as innocent victims, even when making up preposterous stories to explain imaginary alien sightings. That's a little bit of a sore spot for me.
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I'm not portraying anyone as innocent. We could have been guilty of these things (or not) and it has nothing to do with the guilt of the Japanese, or anyone else.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, as the saying goes.
 
At least the theory Turtle has put up fits within the realms of reality.

The main reason it falls down is adequately explained by JMercer.. all conspiracy theories fail this ultimate test.

Secondly I think it HIGHLY unlikely that the US would use “experimented on” Japanese POW’s to test expensive and sensitive new equipment !

Thirdly given the nature of the US it is highly unlikely that they would have experimented on POW’s anyway.
 
UFO

Hello Turtle,

I should have explained myself. I don't believe that experiments were being conducted on Japanese POW's (or any other POW's for that matter) by the USA in 1947/48. I would like the Roswell story of aliens crashing to Earth to be true; what a story that'd be! However, at the time of the 'Roswell Incident', people were seeing 'flying saucers' all over the place, possibly because of the emergence and experimentation of technology following WW2. The sensationalism created by these strange flying (by earthly) craft possibly whipped up hysteria among people and the Roswell incident was borne from that - just someone's idea of a prank that maybe went too far.

A similar sort of thing happened in Warminster, England during the 1960's. People were convinced that aliens were among them because so many had seen odd-shaped craft in the sky. It turned out that these UFO's were nothing more than experimentations in military aircraft, coupled with pranksters creating 'spaceships' from bottle tops, cotton reels and fishing line.

I am quite certain as I can be, that the Universe is teeming with life: we cannot be the only life inside it. However, people from all planets tend to mind their own business and not get involved with others, especially when the distance between life-bearing planets is so vast, far more vast than our human minds can comprehend. How would anybody from another planet know that Earth has life, and moreover, why would they bother travelling the distance to find out? No, this 'Roswell Incident' and all the other 'incidents' are borne out of minds much closer to home.

Sadly.

Patsy.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Roswell

turtle said:
I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

I am "tempted" to use your word, as inaccurate as it is, because I am a conspiracy and UFO buff, because, as I've said, it's intersesting, and because yes, it could be true. It could also be nonsense. I'm not making up my mind, since I don't have enough information. That wouldn't really be scepticism now, would it?
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Actually invisible pink unicorns run the government.

Obviously you can't rule it out because apparently that wouldn't be scepticism.

Your strange definition of scepticism obviously involves giving equal credence or possibility of likelihood to everything claimed by anyone ever.

Which is ironically just about the exact opposite of scepticism.

Personally, my "personal theory" is that it's aliens, or at least, I think it would be great if it were, but I don't think there's quite enough evidence, and way too much muddled stuff out there on Roswell, to know. So much for your "personal theory" on my "personal theory." :D
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Your personal theory clearly involves "It must be something interesting and exciting".
The mundane is obviously instatly rejected.

Is your comment based on my "I'm not naive about gov." remark? Honestly, are you telling me you are naive then? shrug.
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No because you have again created a new definition of a word. Being "not naive" does not mean being astonishingly cynical.

LOL, well, sure, since I'm not a skeptic, that's fine.
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So you don't have any interest in finding out whether there is any evidence for any claim anyone ever makes? You sound quite proud of being wilfully gullible.

What a strange way to go through life.

By the way would you like to buy some magic beans?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NICK REDFERN: TRUTH ABOUT ROSWELL

turtle said:
Okay. Didn't know if you meant we weren't capable of, or, that Redfern doesn't have proof.

(then again, since we haven't read Redfern, we don't know yet. We don't know how valid or invalid his sources are.)
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I'm going to go out on a limb and guess....invalid. If true, his hypothesis would turn history upside-down. How is it that throughout all these years, no one else has seen any evidence of this fantastic conspiracy? How did the US have the resources to develop flying saucers when it was so busy developing nuclear weapons, missile systems, and jet aircraft? Why haven't any other historians jumped on the bandwagon? I think the answer is obvious.
 
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